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 the 305 that wont time

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1984twodoor



Posts: 3947
Join date: 2010-03-30
Age: 21
Location: Wilmington/North Reading

PostSubject: the 305 that wont time   Sat May 21, 2011 1:02 pm

timing mark is at zero, but when the air pushes out of No. 1 the mark on the balancer is 90 degrees away from that....any ideas?

With the mark at zero the distributor drops in and the rotor points over at 7-7:30 as opposed to 5:30-6:00 oclock.


Me and all of my car buddys are stumped....anyone have anything??? Mad scratch
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toomanytoyz
Club President


Posts: 6593
Join date: 2009-01-20
Age: 38
Location: East Hampstead, NH USA

PostSubject: Re: the 305 that wont time   Sat May 21, 2011 1:06 pm

Must be checking it on the wrong stroke. It's TDC on the compression stroke.

Rotate the engine a couple more times and see.

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laidlow91



Posts: 541
Join date: 2009-01-23
Age: 36
Location: New Boston, NH

PostSubject: Re: the 305 that wont time   Sat May 21, 2011 1:21 pm

first rule of distributor removal.
always set to tdc on the balancer, and by pulling the dist cap and making sure the rotor is pointing toward the #1 terminal on the cap.
that way there is no need to turn the engine over without the dist. in.

im pretty sure there are 2 strokes that would push air out of the plug hole.
compression and exhaust.

check to see if both rocker arms are even when air come out.

as for the distributor going back in.
the way i always do it is with dist in hand move the rotor so its pointing
toward where the # wire would be on the cap,( put the cap on and use a marker to index the dist if its easier where #1 is.)
now look at the bottom of the dist to see which way the oil pump drive slot is facing.
now look down the dist hole in your intake and see which way the slot on the oil pump is facing.
stick a long screwdriver down the dist hole and turn the slot to match the direction you dist slot is facing.
if i remeber which way the cam drive gear slants i think you should point the rotor to about 630-7 o'clock. or youll have to go the other way to about 2o'clock.
at this point drop your dist in and see how close it is to your #1 mark.
it WILL NOT be right on the first shot.
youll have to pull the dist back out and tweak the pump drive, and or where your rotor is facing at drop in.

hope that makes sense?
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1984twodoor



Posts: 3947
Join date: 2010-03-30
Age: 21
Location: Wilmington/North Reading

PostSubject: Re: the 305 that wont time   Sun May 22, 2011 4:51 pm

laidlow91 wrote:
first rule of distributor removal.
always set to tdc on the balancer, and by pulling the dist cap and making sure the rotor is pointing toward the #1 terminal on the cap.
that way there is no need to turn the engine over without the dist. in.

im pretty sure there are 2 strokes that would push air out of the plug hole.
compression and exhaust.

check to see if both rocker arms are even when air come out.

as for the distributor going back in.
the way i always do it is with dist in hand move the rotor so its pointing
toward where the # wire would be on the cap,( put the cap on and use a marker to index the dist if its easier where #1 is.)
now look at the bottom of the dist to see which way the oil pump drive slot is facing.
now look down the dist hole in your intake and see which way the slot on the oil pump is facing.
stick a long screwdriver down the dist hole and turn the slot to match the direction you dist slot is facing.
if i remeber which way the cam drive gear slants i think you should point the rotor to about 630-7 o'clock. or youll have to go the other way to about 2o'clock.
at this point drop your dist in and see how close it is to your #1 mark.
it WILL NOT be right on the first shot.
youll have to pull the dist back out and tweak the pump drive, and or where your rotor is facing at drop in.

hope that makes sense?

Thanks anthony, will be trying it out with this method tomorrow!
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1984twodoor



Posts: 3947
Join date: 2010-03-30
Age: 21
Location: Wilmington/North Reading

PostSubject: Re: the 305 that wont time   Mon May 23, 2011 5:40 pm

Got it at top dead by turning the motor over until the air stopped coming out of the no.1 spark plug hole. BUT timing mark didnt line up, it seems to be that the balancer mark is off, or the balancer has shifted at some point. I got the distrb in at the right spot and everything, ran great on the first start up.

Once I got it warmed up and came to a stop after a...spirited...drive down one road it stalled out as i told my buddy next to me "it isnt even stalling on us!"

So its doing exactly what it did before. I called Ironfist dog. and he said a number of things. One, I think a big one is that the computer controlled distributor is no longer getting any input from the computer controlled quadrabog. So I plan on bringing it back to TDC how I had it, and putting in an HEI distributor that is the coil in cap style. That Way I hope to cancel out computer issues. If it still persists, I have to dig deeper, but I may end up doing a new balancer just to be 100% sure it is being timed right. Where the timing mark and TDC dont line up, I feel that a timing light would be uses less, especially if I try it with the glitchy comp distrib. Hopefully I will have some better results by the end of the week!

Thanks for all of the help guys, its greatly appreciated!

OH, and I bought one of those goosneck distributor wrenches! lol

Matt
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Ironfistdog



Posts: 2008
Join date: 2011-01-10
Age: 32
Location: Warren, MA

PostSubject: Re: the 305 that wont time   Mon May 23, 2011 6:58 pm

U gotta use a timing light to set time, and you also have to unplug the distributors spark advance wire when you set it. There is no way the balancer can move it has a key/keyway. If you do decide to put in a hei, you should take the valve cover off the drivers side, and roll the motor over to #1 first and then swap out the distributor. You also have to set the timing to 4* before tdc (with the vacuum advance plugged up) honestly after thinking about it all day, I really believe the bulk of the problem is the timing is off, and a simple use of a timing light to set it properly may just fix the problem.


Last edited by Ironfistdog on Mon May 23, 2011 9:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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1984twodoor



Posts: 3947
Join date: 2010-03-30
Age: 21
Location: Wilmington/North Reading

PostSubject: Re: the 305 that wont time   Mon May 23, 2011 7:20 pm

Ironfistdog wrote:
U gotta use a timing light to set time, and you also have to unplug the distributors spark advance wire when you set it. There is no way the balancer can move it has a key/keyway. If you do decide to put in a hei, to should take the valve cover off the drivers side, and roll the motor over to #1 first and then swap out the distributor. To also have to set the timing to 4* before tdc (wit the vacuum advance plugged up) honestly after thinking about it all day, I really believe the bulk of the problem is the timing is off, and a simple use of a timing light to set it properly may just fix the problem.

Ok, Which is the spark advanced wire? I tried to fire it when the distrib was stabbed with the notch at the zero mark on the timing tab and it just wasnt happening. with the air out of the hole though and the mark not lined up it fired and idled really well. I think I will hold off on any more timing trials until after the older HEI is in. I dont understand how the balancer mark is off either but with the mark at Zero, the rotor is in the wrong spot and the motor wont fire.
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Ironfistdog



Posts: 2008
Join date: 2011-01-10
Age: 32
Location: Warren, MA

PostSubject: Re: the 305 that wont time   Mon May 23, 2011 7:48 pm

The timing mark comes up to the tab twice, if you have the distributor in and the timing mark is "around" the tab and it won't fire, you may be off 180*. and you'll have to pull the dist. And crank it around again until the mark comes up a 2nd time. Then try putting it in again. Once you can start it, put the light on the balancer and move the cap back and forth until you get the mark at the "0". Tighten down the distributor until it's snug but you can move it still... Re check to make sure your at 0 and then tighten all the way. The spark wire should be a harness that runs along the passenger side of the carb. That had to be unplugged while setting the timing in a stock 87-93, although you may not even have to bother with it since it's a reg carb. If you don't see the mark when you put the light on it, and you DID see it on the tab whe the engine was off then your off 1 tooth and to EEC to pull the distributor out, stick a long screwdriver down the hole and turn the oil pump a little bit (in the direction you need to go retarded/advanced) and slip the distributor back in, it should have moved the rotor only a little bit. And if done right now the timid mark will come back up to the tab with the light on. The balancer is held to the crankshaft and the crank shaft is held to the cam, there is no way they move unless you remove the timing chain (or it wears out) like Anthony said " you never get it back in on the first try"
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Machine-De-Zine



Posts: 508
Join date: 2010-11-16
Age: 57
Location: Wrentham

PostSubject: Re: the 305 that wont time   Mon May 30, 2011 9:15 am

Don't forget the possibility that the damper MAY have been replaced in the past.

There have been many variations on OEM SBC "balancers" over the years, and they WILL bolt on despite the fact that they have several different timing mark locations.

Also you can't completely rule out the fact that the woodruff key may have sheared off or even been left out entirely, causing the entire damper assy to rotate on the crankshaft.

I have also seen damper "mass rings" rotate on the elastomeric bonded rubber that holds them on their hub, usually resulting in some form of misalignment.

Look for evidence of rubber coming out at the parting line of the damper.

Next: With the oil pump drive tang aligned, drop the distributor in @ about 3:00 & it will rotate down into engagement clockwise to about the 5:00 position. (12:00 closest to firewall).

Attach the cap, if the #1 wire is not at the 5:00 pos., pull off all the wires and start with #1 @ 5:00. 18436572 clockwise. Keep 5 & 7 separated. (Inhibiting inductive misfiring)

Somebody may have installed the wires in an incorrect clocking position.

All of the other advice given here previously is good. Yes, both #1, I & E valves should be closed as the air is pushed out of the spark plug hole, approaching TDC.

If you need to locate exact TDC, let me know & I will help you determine that, if you need to degree the damper "0" mark to actual piston, cam & timing pointer locations.

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1984twodoor



Posts: 3947
Join date: 2010-03-30
Age: 21
Location: Wilmington/North Reading

PostSubject: Re: the 305 that wont time   Mon May 30, 2011 5:16 pm

I think that I'm going to pull the valve cover to check the valves and make sure I'm at TDC. I believe that the timing mark has shifted slightly, maybe 10 degrees or so. with the piston up the mark is closer to the big "loop" circle which is after my mark for 0. I'm close, but I'd rather be sure. Plus a set of chrome valve covers would look great with the new carb Laughing
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