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 Group Purchase for an "ABS delete" Stainless Steel brake line set???

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AuthorMessage
Machine-De-Zine



Posts : 512
Join date : 2010-11-16
Age : 60
Location : Wrentham

PostSubject: Group Purchase for an "ABS delete" Stainless Steel brake line set???   Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:12 pm

...
I'm working on a complete set of Stainless Steel brake lines (with a respected vendor) that will bolt directly into your WX3 SS-style F-Disc/R-Disc vehicle.

There would also be a drum brake version, 9C1 narrow axle width disc brake version, and perhaps a wagon version later on down the road.

Your original brake lines are likely to be dangerously rotted, or patched up already.

And I'm not a big fan of the Bosch ABS behavior, or it's ugly, weighty presence cluttering up the area over the steering box either.

...
So the idea is to be able to re-use ALL original 4-wheel disc brake calipers, all 5 OEM style flex hoses, ISO metric port OEM master cylinder, but using the cleaner simpler PRE-ABS pipe routing.

The new S/S lines will last into perpetuity, but all consumables (flex lines, calipers, master cylinders) will be OEM to your model and year car for "off the shelf" future brake system repairs.

This upgrade will also remedy the OEM's oversight on the multi-function proportioning valve, so you will not have to do the silly "brake-bolt" or so-called "stealth?-mod".    

Let me know if there's any interest here.
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MASShole9C1



Posts : 4211
Join date : 2009-12-16

PostSubject: Re: Group Purchase for an "ABS delete" Stainless Steel brake line set???   Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:11 pm

Hmmm. Well, my ABS works fine. I don't see it causing too much clutter. My 9C1 still has the factory brake lines. No sign of rust or safety issue anywhere in its future. Unless I removed my ABS and wanted to lock up my tires and slide uncontrollably, that is...
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sdstick



Posts : 4278
Join date : 2009-03-20
Location : Revere, MA

PostSubject: Re: Group Purchase for an "ABS delete" Stainless Steel brake line set???   Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:40 pm


Cant make up your mind?

Remove the fuel filter & look behind it to see your rotted brake line.

Not for ex-CA cars or those that were saved from winter early in thier lives....just the other guys

_________________
Steve


96BBB 28K 3.42 Bolt-ons
95BBB 100K 3.73 383 New DD...already broke fixt the 4L60E twice
95 Black WB4 Hole...ee...grail
96 Black WB4 No holes in this
95BBB 189K 3.08 Old DD Stolen...by Matt. Cool
Whine..eee...Silver LS6
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Machine-De-Zine



Posts : 512
Join date : 2010-11-16
Age : 60
Location : Wrentham

PostSubject: Re: Group Purchase for an "ABS delete" Stainless Steel brake line set???   Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:23 pm

MASShole9C1 wrote:
Unless I removed my ABS and wanted to lock up my tires and slide uncontrollably, that is...
It appears I have blindly assumed that there would be more drivers here that shared my views concerning ABS.

But I keep forgetting that at some point in the past, more years ago than I care to admit, ABS became what nearly all new drivers would be exclusively learning to drive with.

When I started driving, ABS was many many years still in the distant future.

Being a rambunctious young lad, too inexperienced to ever-vigilently exercise caution behind the wheel, I pushed up to and past the envelope of good judgement and sometimes the laws of physics, on any and all motorized wheeled modes of conveyance, and those cars, trucks, tractors, bulldozers (and motorcycles) were mostly either rear drive or all wheel drive, with inadequate drum brakes and tires you wouldn't put on your old wheel-barrow.

Perhaps I was already too set in my habits and experiences to acclimate to ABS intervention when it arrived.

When it did come along, it just felt wrong, and it still does.

(I also prefer strict manual brakes best, Bendix Hydro-boost for assist, but I actually hate vacuum assisted brakes, , , yes, hate it.)

Ive never had occasion to argue the merits of non-ABS to anyone of my sharred experience or age group, particularly those who have participated in road course competition.

I will agree with anyone who believes that ABS is an excellent "safety-net" for the majority of casual drivers who are likely to panic in most infrequent or unexpected dangerous situations that they have not had repeated & successful practice in anticipating and/or executing vehicle control through.

Without proper training, most drivers stand on the brake pedal and freeze their arms, locking the steering wheel in what ever direction it was pointed at the moment of initial panic.

So, yes, , , in these cases ABS intervention can better keep the panicked driver's wheels rolling where the option of steering with directional control and gradual braking can occur.

But the real-time ABS functioning will supersede over any of your intentional efforts, and the automatic interventions are taking time to intercede and then more time to release from their "take-overs".

This is already too long a post, but I could describe at least two situations that come to mind that I survived, I believe because there was no ABS to wrest control away from me, as I went directly to skills developed that are second nature at this point in my driving.

ABS acquiescence has been a new skill to integrate into my subconscious driving approach, there's always a momentary frustration until I consciously accept that the car has taken control of my brake pedal.  

- - - -
I don't know if many folks here have had an opportunity to operate any very large vehicles equipped with wedge brakes, but we had them in the older GMC-RTS buses.
These 45,000+ lbs vehicles could easily launch you through the windscreen upon a full brake pedal stomp!

The government mandated quite a few years ago that all transit buses be built with ABS, and unfortunately this technology could not be effectively integrated into the wedge-brake systems.

So they went to "S"-cams, and subsequently the stopping distances increased dramatically, at times dangerously.

We still have a handful of these "relic" buses in the system, and I love driving them for the superior confidence their brake's stopping power gives me.

It probably would be a mistake to "delete" the ABS on any vehicle driven by a person who had learned to drive and have "cut their teeth" on ABS cars.

Maybe I'm a bit of a control freak, but I have never liked having my vehicle making decisions for me, which is also why I prefer a manual transmission to a slush-box (automatic trans).

Rant over-
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MASShole9C1



Posts : 4211
Join date : 2009-12-16

PostSubject: Re: Group Purchase for an "ABS delete" Stainless Steel brake line set???   Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:54 pm

Yea, well maybe its just my ignorance being in a different age group. Or perhaps I make frequently uncalculated "panic stops" due to my inability to comprehend the situation or how automobiles once had non ABS systems.

Hell, having driven many manual steering and manual brake vehicles in my short time, maybe I'm just happier with advances in technology over a seemingly Flintstone era of automotive safety programs.
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Ironfistdog



Posts : 2124
Join date : 2011-01-11
Age : 35
Location : Warren, MA

PostSubject: Re: Group Purchase for an "ABS delete" Stainless Steel brake line set???   Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:42 am

I agree Glen! Nothing like a good manual brake setup! I've actually voiced my dis approval on the 93-96 cadillac's traction control as well, almost wrecked my car BECAUSE control was taken away from me for a brief couple seconds,

Speaking of power vs non power items I have a question (brief thread de-rail SORRY!)
if I have a power steering setup in my c-10 and I choose NOT to hook up a power steering pump or hoses to it what kind of problems if any will face, (not including losing power steering) I don't want to run PS in the truck, will simply removing the pump do it?

Back to the thread: ABS looks like total crap under the hood of these cars. Of all places to put it! Really?????!
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Machine-De-Zine



Posts : 512
Join date : 2010-11-16
Age : 60
Location : Wrentham

PostSubject: Re: Group Purchase for an "ABS delete" Stainless Steel brake line set???   Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:00 am

Ironfistdog wrote:

if I have a power steering setup in my c-10 and I choose NOT to hook up a power steering pump or hoses to it what kind of problems if any will face, (not including losing power steering) I don't want to run PS in the truck, will simply removing the pump do it?

Back to the thread: ABS looks like total crap under the hood of these cars. Of all places to put it! Really?????!
(Put in a manual steering gear box if you don't want power steering). PM me for further discussion.

I actually like ABS, if comprised of well engineered, modern components, at all 4 corners, fast pulse, properly tuned system to a specific vehicle that has already excellent brakes, such as whats in late or even current Z06 Vettes.

If I could afford the time and expense, I would do the conversion on my SS.

Better yet, give me what Bosch currently makes right now specifically for competition road race cars, and let one of their top field engineers tune it to my exact car's needs, I'll take that in a heartbeat!

Its just that our B-body 3 channel system is not appropriate for my style of driving and my vehicle dynamics expectations.

And no I am not suggesting that anyone who likes their current ABS set up should delete it.

Re-reading my post, it does appear that I came off sounding like,, anyone who likes or depends on ABS is the "lesser" driver.

This was not my intent, a good ABS intervention would help me, more often than not, just as well as it would anybody else, given the same circumstances of road conditions or a sudden hazard.

...
The purpose here is simply in offering an alternative for anyone who wants to avoid the considerable expense of ABS pump, head or control unit repairs or replacement, eliminate the complex nest of pipes and harnesses under hood, remove a chunk of weight in a bad spot (for overall vehicle weight distribution) and clear up some real estate, while also making a huge improvement in long term reliability concerning OEM inner brake line rot.

These old pipes are how many years old now?

I seem to recall that the OEMs said that these ABS pump bodies were supposed to be mandatorily removed and replaced after so many years, like 20 years maybe??? Anybody else here recall that???

Most manufacturers clearly recommend a thorough full system flushing out of the brake fluid every year or two, as they know that DOT3/4 fluid is extremely hygroscopic, and even if your pipes appear immaculate and rust free from the outside, they are likely to be rotting from inside if your fluid is old and water-logged.

Old brake fluid gets it's dark brown color from sloughed off iron oxide (rust) floating and circulating into it from inside your brakes system's rotting hard pipes.

I dont claim to be an ABS expert, nor do I deny being from the age of the Flintstones, but a question for the people who've met me, I ask... whom do I resemble more, Barney Rubble or Fred Flintstone?
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Pooge



Posts : 1698
Join date : 2009-03-24

PostSubject: Re: Group Purchase for an "ABS delete" Stainless Steel brake line set???   Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:20 pm

Due to clearance issues with my LS swap I might very well be interested in this type of ABS delete kit. Not willing to confirm anything yet, but would be interested to see pricing...

_________________
1996 Impala SS - 45K original miles - 5.3 LS swap - Brand new Bilsteins...WHAT A DIFFERENCE!
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Machine-De-Zine



Posts : 512
Join date : 2010-11-16
Age : 60
Location : Wrentham

PostSubject: Re: Group Purchase for an "ABS delete" Stainless Steel brake line set???   Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:17 pm

Pooge wrote:
Due to clearance issues with my LS swap I might very well be interested in this type of ABS delete kit. Not willing to confirm anything yet, but would be interested to see pricing...
The kit should be about the same cost as the 77-90 chevy B-body stainless steel kit they already sell. (under $200 - w/steel nuts)

Nobody seems to sell metric ISO (metric) stainless steel tube nuts, so that upgrade is not currently available.

You could just buy the existing boxy brake line kit, but that would require you to convert the whole car over to the early style parts list, meaning you would have to change over every component on the later "bubble-car" over to the inch-thread "boxy-car" versions.

In the kit I am working on, all your newer WX3 parts already on your car would bolt up, including the master cylinder, all 5 flex lines and the rear disc brakes from an SS, as these parts are partially metric.

The two threads coming out of the "T" on top of the axle are 3.8"x24, but the WX3 flex line pipe end is M12, the rear caliper banjo bolt is M10x1.0, the front banjo is M10x1.5, master cylinder is M11x1.5 and M12x1.0.

Comparing significant differences between the early and late proportioning valves dictates that they are not interchangeable, not the least because the late Metric (ABS) proportioning valve only had one outlet port for the front brake pipe runs, you would need two.

Therefore, you must use the early-style configured valve, which is completely inch thread tapped, and is available in both "disc-drum" as well as "disc-disc", including the appropriate and different residual pressure settings required for each.

We've all heard that the WX3 4-wheel disc brake PV is the same exact part as what GM installed in a disc-drum B-body of the same year, which leads me to suspect that the OEM engineers (working within the stringent bean-counter's restraints) intended for the ABS to accomplish the task of curtailing panic-induced rear wheel lock-up instead of the use of a proper, application specific, weight-transfer "curved" proportioning-valve necessitated between disc-drum and disc-disc applications.

It's a shame that GM didn't simply install four-corner ABS as they did in the D-body, which would've resulted in all the big cars sharing the same layout and parts, and no stupid pinion gear reluctor-ring.

This compromise was done apparently to save them from the costs associated with providing the required additional brake line out to the back and the inclusion of one more wheel sensor.  

.....
The idea here in this thread is that with this set of pipes installed, it would allow you to go to your parts store for the easily acquired OEM style parts that need periodic replacement, that were made for your actual vehicle (year and model), such as calipers, flex lines, master cylinders, without the added and confusing difficulty of trying to remember which part was borrowed from which donor vehicle.

I'm not asking for any commitment or money from anyone, I'm just letting people know that this option should be available soon as another "vehicle application" from this vendor.

Once the maker of these lines has entered this pattern into his computer database, it would simply be for us, just another application from which to choose, and I hope at the same price too.
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PostSubject: Re: Group Purchase for an "ABS delete" Stainless Steel brake line set???   Today at 1:35 pm

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