BADASS of New England

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 Rusty Nuts?

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sdstick



Posts : 4277
Join date : 2009-03-20
Location : Revere, MA

PostSubject: Rusty Nuts?   Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:52 am


Razz OK now stop what your thinking.....

Got this from the HERD ( I think we've talked about it before)

Penetrating Oils
Machinist's Workshop recently published some information on various penetrating oils. The magazine reports they tested penetrates for break out torque on rusted nuts.
Below listed, a subjective test was made of all the popular penetrates, with the control being the torque required to remove the nut from a "scientifically rusted" environment.
Average torque load to loosen
No Oil used ................... 516 pounds
WD-40 ..................... ... 238 pounds
PB Blaster .................... 214 pounds
Liquid Wrench ...............127 pounds
Kano Kroil .................... 106 pounds
ATF - Acetone mix............53 pounds
The ATF-Acetone mix is a "home brew" mix of 50 - 50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone. Note this "home brew" released bolts better than any commercial product in
this one particular test.
Our local machinist group mixed up a batch and we all now use it with equally good results.
Note also that Liquid Wrench is almost as good as Kroil for 20% of the price.
ATF-Acetone mix is best, but you can also use ATF and lacquer thinner in a 50-50 mix. (ATF=Automatic Transmission Fluid)

_________________
Steve


96BBB 28K 3.42 Bolt-ons
95BBB 100K 3.73 383 New DD...already broke fixt the 4L60E twice
95 Black WB4 Hole...ee...grail
96 Black WB4 No holes in this
95BBB 189K 3.08 Old DD Stolen...by Matt. Cool
Whine..eee...Silver LS6
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GasTT



Posts : 2675
Join date : 2009-01-19
Age : 28
Location : Treasure Coast, FL

PostSubject: Re: Rusty Nuts?   Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:38 pm

Interesting. People also say ATF works good (mixed with something I forget) as a parts cleaner/degreaser. Which makes sence because when you wipe the fluid off whatever it was on its usually clean.
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bowtiepimp



Posts : 1562
Join date : 2010-06-19
Age : 31
Location : working a corner near you

PostSubject: Re: Rusty Nuts?   Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:00 pm

sweet I get to play mad scientist at work tomorrow...... Twisted Evil


Is there a chance I could blow something up while trying this? Laughing
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1984twodoor



Posts : 4059
Join date : 2010-03-30
Age : 23
Location : Wilmington/Wakefield/Andover

PostSubject: Re: Rusty Nuts?   Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:40 pm

GasTT wrote:
Interesting. People also say ATF works good (mixed with something I forget) as a parts cleaner/degreaser. Which makes sence because when you wipe the fluid off whatever it was on its usually clean.

ATF has a high amount of detergents, that's why you use it honing cylinders to help clean it up a bit too. I never would have thought of using it as a penetrating lube. Good tip! Arrow

bowtiepimp wrote:
sweet I get to play mad scientist at work tomorrow...... Twisted Evil


Is there a chance I could blow something up while trying this? Laughing


I'm not sure, but bring the video camera just in case it does! Laughing
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8bud



Posts : 626
Join date : 2009-01-23
Age : 44
Location : Salem, NH

PostSubject: Re: Rusty Nuts?   Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:42 pm

Note- watch out near painted surfaces when using the atf- acetone or lacquer thinner mix. I know you should watch out with any of the products but you can usually just wipe away any of the other products; the acetone and/or lacquer thinner will eat into the paint almost instantly.
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95brmw



Posts : 1423
Join date : 2009-11-10
Age : 32
Location : Connecticut

PostSubject: Re: Rusty Nuts?   Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:09 pm

I had heard of the 50/50 mix but never tried it. Been using Kroil for years now and love it.
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Machine-De-Zine



Posts : 512
Join date : 2010-11-16
Age : 59
Location : Wrentham

PostSubject: Re: Rusty Nuts?   Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:10 pm

*
I was surprised to see that ATF w/acetone was so much more effective, but I'd still like to know what the specific test set-up was.

Trizol penetrant/solvent (100% pure organic de-gummed castor oil) from the Castoleum Corp. has worked better than anything else I've tried so far,

~ but I WILL try the 50/50 ATF/(CH3)2CO-[Propanone]mixture to satisfy my curiosity.

There must be a measurable difference between how that concoction might work on different "rusty-nut" variations.

Such as an ARP 300 series bolt threaded into solid brass nuts like what you might have connecting your head pipes to the 409 stainless steel exhaust manifold.

Or perhaps on a Holo-Chrome or Unbrako chrome-moly ultra-high strength alloy socket head cap-screw tightly threaded into medium carbon heat treated steel.

Or a generic hardware store "grade-8" bolt threaded into a cast iron engine block, while clamping through a 356 aluminum cast part.

It can not be emphasized strongly enough how at least equally important your disassembly techniques are exercised as well.

Shock (vibration) and heat are very good, and sometimes absolutely necessary to get it done.

It is also a good strategy to get the offending fastener to just start backing-off, and then reverse rotation back & forth (CW & CCW) gently while dousing with solvent penetrant to help flush the iron oxides out from galling up the threads.

If rust is even remotely suspected, you obviously don't use your 1/2" air gun set to "KILL" to remove a 1/4"x20-tpi grade 5 bolt (3 hatch marks) from your engine block!

PS, Anyone here ever tried Acetone mixed in the gas tank yet, Google that! And yes it does pretty much what they claim it does.
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sdstick



Posts : 4277
Join date : 2009-03-20
Location : Revere, MA

PostSubject: Re: Rusty Nuts?   Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:27 pm

https://secure.villagepress.com/store/items/detail/item/1549

When we do things like salt spray testing etc....it's always pretty well documented the enviromental conditions that MUST be in place for satisfactory test

In THIS case, I'm ASSUMING they at least subject ALL their samples to the same pre-test marination.

Didnt realize this info has been around since 2007

_________________
Steve


96BBB 28K 3.42 Bolt-ons
95BBB 100K 3.73 383 New DD...already broke fixt the 4L60E twice
95 Black WB4 Hole...ee...grail
96 Black WB4 No holes in this
95BBB 189K 3.08 Old DD Stolen...by Matt. Cool
Whine..eee...Silver LS6


Last edited by sdstick on Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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boojum



Posts : 2148
Join date : 2009-01-21
Age : 29
Location : NH

PostSubject: Re: Rusty Nuts?   Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:25 pm

Did they do the test on bolts also? The link wants me to buy the mag.















Smile
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Machine-De-Zine



Posts : 512
Join date : 2010-11-16
Age : 59
Location : Wrentham

PostSubject: Re: Rusty Nuts?   Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:43 am

1984twodoor wrote:
GasTT wrote:
Interesting. People also say ATF works good (mixed with something I forget) as a parts cleaner/degreaser. Which makes sence because when you wipe the fluid off whatever it was on its usually clean.

ATF has a high amount of detergents, that's why you use it honing cylinders to help clean it up a bit too. I never would have thought of using it as a penetrating lube. Good tip!

We don't use ATF to hone the cylinders, for that Sunnen honing oil is used.

We do use ATF to scrub clean the freshly honed surface of embedded stone grit and sloughed-off metal particles in the crosshatch grooves, after the cutting is completed.

After that the block is painstakingly hand washed with Palmolive dish soap & water.

When the block is bone dry it can be PrepSol cleaned for paint, or misted with a rust preventive oil of a specific formulation depending on how long that block may be sitting in wait for parts or a customer payment update.

Before the block is final assembled, the cylinders will be thoroughly washed with lacquer thinner and rubbed down with engine oil for proper ring break-in.

You have to be sure there is no Molybdenum DiSulfide on the cylinder surface because that would spoil the ring seating process.

This was not meant to thread-jack, but to clarify the use of ATF on cylinder walls.

If anyone was thinking that a scientific experiment might end up blowing stuff up,
They should make sure they understand that ATF in this case does not mean Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms.
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1984twodoor



Posts : 4059
Join date : 2010-03-30
Age : 23
Location : Wilmington/Wakefield/Andover

PostSubject: Re: Rusty Nuts?   Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:51 am

Glen, you do all of that because you're at an engine shop Laughing

Some people just slap it together, especially when it won't run ever again.


Good to know all of that so when I actually get my block machined I can verify the job will be done right Arrow
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Machine-De-Zine



Posts : 512
Join date : 2010-11-16
Age : 59
Location : Wrentham

PostSubject: Re: Rusty Nuts?   Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:13 am

1984twodoor wrote:
Glen, you do all of that because you're at an engine shop Laughing

Some people just slap it together, especially when it won't run ever again.


Good to know all of that so when I actually get my block machined I can verify the job will be done right Arrow

The only part of preparation that you don't do at home is the boring and honing, so aside from not having your own supply of Sunnen honing oil, every cleaning step I suggested should ALWAYS be done at home, by whom ever assembles any freshly machined engine block.

Palmolive detergent, lacquer thinner, ATF, Prep-Sol, WD-40, engine oil, Acetone (Propanone), Trizol, Kroil, etc. can all be procured by any homeowner without having to be put on some Governmental Homeland Security watch list!

Even if your machine shop claims to have done all this cleaning prep-work, you absolutely should re-do it again at home in your garage or driveway!

As far as how to avoid this rusty nut/rusty bolt dilemma in the first place, on any conventionally joined parts, you should assemble it gooped up with Perfect Seal from QuickSilver, and that stuff can be bought at your marine supply house.

This method will totally end your frozen rusty bolt & nut woes for good!

At work, I've used this stuff on our big Mack "Snow-Fighter" rig where the huge salt spreader environment constantly destroys bolted & nutted hardware in less than one season.

Using Perfect Seal upon assembly, even standard non-stainless steel hardware comes apart like NEW, even after many years of neglectful galvanically corrosive service.

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