BADASS of New England

An automobile club for the enthusiast who enjoys the last of the big GM cars. The rear wheel drive B and D bodys. Chevrolet Impala SS, Caprice, 9C1, Buick Roadmaster, Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser, Cadillac Fleetwood
 
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 Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles

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Ironfistdog



Posts : 2124
Join date : 2011-01-11
Age : 35
Location : Warren, MA

PostSubject: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:20 pm

I'm thinking of trying to swap out the 5x5 bolt pattern to an older 5x4.75

I saw a write up about swapping in camaro 1AE rotors and drilling a new patten in the rear end but wouldn't it be easier to just swap spindles and a rear end from a box caprice in?
Is it possible?
Direct bolt in?
Where's machine-de-zine when a need him??????????


Last edited by Ironfistdog on Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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1984twodoor



Posts : 4059
Join date : 2010-03-30
Age : 23
Location : Wilmington/Wakefield/Andover

PostSubject: Re: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:52 pm

That's funny as I have a feeling I am going in the opposite direction in an effort to find a stronger rear end than a 7.5 2.56, which both of mine are Rolling Eyes

More info for both ends of the swap would be sweet, ahem, MDZ! Come back we need you! Laughing
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Ironfistdog



Posts : 2124
Join date : 2011-01-11
Age : 35
Location : Warren, MA

PostSubject: Re: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:17 pm

Well I'm in need of a box rear and front spindles (complete)
From what I've read the front spindles on a box take 11" rotors
Spindles on a 91-96 take 12", I can put boxy rotors on my spindles but the brake pads will hang over by an inch
Spindles from a box, as long as they are civi will bolt right in.
As far as the rear I haven't been able to find anything.... I would assume it's the same kind of install, As I've heard ppl putting 91-96 rears into 80-90 caprice's.

Anyone got some box parts for sale???

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1984twodoor



Posts : 4059
Join date : 2010-03-30
Age : 23
Location : Wilmington/Wakefield/Andover

PostSubject: Re: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:07 pm

Ironfistdog wrote:
Well I'm in need of a box rear and front spindles (complete)
From what I've read the front spindles on a box take 11" rotors
Spindles on a 91-96 take 12", I can put boxy rotors on my spindles but the brake pads will hang over by an inch
Spindles from a box, as long as they are civi will bolt right in.
As far as the rear I haven't been able to find anything.... I would assume it's the same kind of install, As I've heard ppl putting 91-96 rears into 80-90 caprice's.

Anyone got some box parts for sale???


The rear end from the red car, the frame I'm using, has miles but would be for sale after I get it out. I can get you the spindles from the white car and even leave my rotors on there, they're in surprisingly good condition, not even rusted yet!

So I have parts, it just depends on how long you can wait before you can get them ya know?
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Ironfistdog



Posts : 2124
Join date : 2011-01-11
Age : 35
Location : Warren, MA

PostSubject: Re: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:11 pm

I'd like to get as soon as possible. I think the center hub is 7 mm bigger on a 91-96 otherwise I'd redrill the bolt pattern.
Any interest in swapping your bolt pattern to a 5x5? Might have a rear disc brake setup for sale soon.......
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1984twodoor



Posts : 4059
Join date : 2010-03-30
Age : 23
Location : Wilmington/Wakefield/Andover

PostSubject: Re: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:29 pm

Ironfistdog wrote:
I'd like to get as soon as possible. I think the center hub is 7 mm bigger on a 91-96 otherwise I'd redrill the bolt pattern.
Any interest in swapping your bolt pattern to a 5x5? Might have a rear disc brake setup for sale soon.......

What's the gear ratio on the disk rear? Posi? I may be interested in swapping, but again, I can't work as fast as you with school and work schedules killing all of my time for the cars. I'd have to tow my frame back home before I can pull that rear for you. Also, its a 2.56 I'm pretty sure.

If anything, I have some spindles for you whenever you want if you're interested.

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Ironfistdog



Posts : 2124
Join date : 2011-01-11
Age : 35
Location : Warren, MA

PostSubject: Re: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:33 pm

I can take a ride sometime if I can find a day,
I know Tha place still has all those boxes sitting out in the field. I might just buy one and part it out.
I'll let you know about the disc setup whe it gets here.
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MASShole9C1



Posts : 4211
Join date : 2009-12-16

PostSubject: Re: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:36 pm

Boxes in a field? Do tell..........
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Ironfistdog



Posts : 2124
Join date : 2011-01-11
Age : 35
Location : Warren, MA

PostSubject: Re: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:45 pm

IIRC that Mohawk Motor place had 2 box wagons and 2 box sedans, one rmw and a low mile blue 91.
I bet if I offered them $200 for one of those boxes they'd let it go.
I bought my wife an 87 caprice brougham LS with the red velour pillow top seats for $700.
And my boy Arkee from out in Malden had an uncle that bought an 86 with black vinyl roof for $600.

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MASShole9C1



Posts : 4211
Join date : 2009-12-16

PostSubject: Re: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:07 pm

I remember that place. The winter of early 2011, I called 6 times over 2 weeks until someone answered. It was the owners wife. Her husband was very ill and they're son was "running" the business for the time. But she didn't know when they'd be open due to "modified" hours. She said she'd call back, i waited a week, called them 3 times. Gave up. I was ready to go there, cash in hand. I really wanted that 91. The place is probably a junk yard now lol. Let us know what you find.
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Ironfistdog



Posts : 2124
Join date : 2011-01-11
Age : 35
Location : Warren, MA

PostSubject: Re: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:31 pm

Yeah it's kinda one if those places you have to go to in person, and listen to the old guy fart and tell stories about how in 1903 he played kick the can and drank sarsaparilla...... And if your polite enough he MIGHT sell you a car.
I wish you could see this guys c-10 pick up truck... MINT with all the bells and whistles and pinstriping.
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1984twodoor



Posts : 4059
Join date : 2010-03-30
Age : 23
Location : Wilmington/Wakefield/Andover

PostSubject: Re: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:14 am

Ironfistdog wrote:
I can take a ride sometime if I can find a day,
I know Tha place still has all those boxes sitting out in the field. I might just buy one and part it out.
I'll let you know about the disc setup whe it gets here.

We can stay in touch then! If you parted a box, I'd be out there many times LOL Cool





This place right? Smile
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Ironfistdog



Posts : 2124
Join date : 2011-01-11
Age : 35
Location : Warren, MA

PostSubject: Re: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:23 am

Wow that's crazy.
No that is definitely NOT the place I speak of. Funny how there's another one.... I like yours a little better. With the place I'm talking about you get the feeling that your gonna hear banjo's at any given moment. :shutters:
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Machine-De-Zine



Posts : 512
Join date : 2010-11-16
Age : 60
Location : Wrentham

PostSubject: Re: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:55 pm

Ironfistdog wrote:
I'm thinking of trying to swap out the 5x5 bolt pattern to an older 5x4.75

I saw a write up about swapping in camaro 1AE rotors and drilling a new patten in the rear end but wouldn't it be easier to just swap spindles and a rear end from a box caprice in?
Is it possible?
Direct bolt in?
Where's machine-de-zine when a need him??????????

Sorry for the late response.
I've been working back to back doubles all week.

A compendium of random factoids concerning B/Cs & rotors, rears, ABS, & interchange info. , , ,

Front spindles are basically of two types in terms of bolt patterns 5 bolts on a 4.750" or a 5.000" circle.
- - Both got a boss machined to accept the ABS sensor when that became std all models. Reluctors are pressed on the back of the front rotor.
The important difference is in the distance from the center of the axle to the mounting ears,
- - this is to accommodate for the necessary correct small and large rotor diameter caliper placement.
A [T.S.B.] alerted dealers about a factory fix for frequent front lower ball joint failures in HD applications starting in mid-year 1995 & later , , ,
- - The up-grade was a Larger lower BJ, requiring a different lower control arm AND spindle to accept the larger diameter BJ.
Boxy Bs had 4.750" B/C on all civi models, except 9 passenger wagons.
Many 9 pass. wagons had the excellent Bendix Hydraboost brake system, as did ALL Olds diesel powered versions, including sedans.
Boxy 9C1s used the big brake components from the 9 passenger wagon, but remember, , , ,
- - ALL wagon rears are MUCH wider to allow a 4' x 8' plywood sheet to fit in the cargo hold.
All cars with big front brake rotors also had either big rear drums or later, PBR disc brakes. No rear discs on wagons though, to my knowledge.
All disc brake rears were 8.5", but in two widths, narrow for bubble 9C1 (61.65") & wide for WX3 (62.91").
All big brake vehicles had the large hub-bore AND big bolt circle (5 on 5). > > > Exception: 1LE F-body front rotors! < < <
9C1 cars ALL got the 8.5" rear, regardless of what engine was originally installed.
The 1LE F-body front rotors share the same bearings, races and seals as the B-bodies,
- - but have a smaller hub diameter to use the 70.5mm (2.776") hub-centric bore wheels.
Larger bolt circle cars front and rear hub-centric diameters were 77.8mm ~ (3 & 1/16")
- - Otherwise, the 1LE rotor is just an 11.88" (12" nom.) B-body HD rotor, but with a smaller hub diameter and bolt circle diameter.
The ABS system on F-bodies sense (count) the reluctor lugs directly on the ring gear,
B-bodies with ABS sense (count) them on the pinion reluctor pressed onto the pinion between the two bearings.
- - These are both three channel stand alone set-ups; (F & B-bodies).
D-bodies have FOUR channel OEM stand alone ABS systems, I can't recall if ANY Buick Roadmasters had four channel, anybody know?
Four channel ABS systems read reluctor counts at each front and rear wheel,
- - and have separate sensor signal cables and brake fluid pipes from the front to the back of the car.
This (above) is all from memory, so if any mistakes were made, let me know please.
I believe Navy Lifer on the big board has compiled the best research on this/these subject/s, if I remember correctly.
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Ironfistdog



Posts : 2124
Join date : 2011-01-11
Age : 35
Location : Warren, MA

PostSubject: Re: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:09 pm

That is all accurate info and I appreciate the time taken to post all of that.
I know about the differences, what I NEED to know is if I had a box chevy with 5x4.75 sitting next to my 1995 civilian l99 Caprice, would I be able to unbolt the rear end and the spindles and swap them over to my 95 without any major costly modification. Basically I have like 10 different sets of expensive rims, but they are all 5x4.75 I want to run them on my 95. I DO NOT want to machine my rotors or rear axles.
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Cadet57



Posts : 4476
Join date : 2010-03-14
Age : 29
Location : Chicopee, MA

PostSubject: Re: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:38 pm

Ironfistdog wrote:
With the place I'm talking about you get the feeling that your gonna hear banjo's at any given moment. :shutters:

Well... It IS the Brookfields.... Laughing
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Machine-De-Zine



Posts : 512
Join date : 2010-11-16
Age : 60
Location : Wrentham

PostSubject: Re: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:24 pm

Ironfistdog wrote:
That is all accurate info and I appreciate the time taken to post all of that.
I know about the differences, what I NEED to know is if I had a box chevy with 5x4.75 sitting next to my 1995 civilian l99 Caprice, would I be able to unbolt the rear end and the spindles and swap them over to my 95 without any major costly modification. Basically I have like 10 different sets of expensive rims, but they are all 5x4.75 I want to run them on my 95. I DO NOT want to machine my rotors or rear axles.
Thats why I provided more info than requested, however I did not realize that you didn't already know that: But, YES you certainly can bolt the boxy housing directly in.
1977 through 1996 rear housings are "architecturally interchangeable", but you have to see what year GM switched over to metric rear control arm hardware, but again, even that should not prevent swaps.

You will NOT have a functioning ABS though, because no boxies had that.

There is more to this story too, they (GM) changed (increased) the 8.5 spline count somewhere between 1988 & 1989 (28spl to 30spl) - trucks too,
- - but since I could not remember the specifics, especially concerning the small gear spline counts, I chose not to include that information.
I raise this point because sometimes someone asks if you can swap boxy axles and/or housings with bubble axles and/or housings.
For example: putting a 7.625" small bolt pattern axle set from a 1987 boxy housing into a 1995 7.5" bubble housing.

The white 88 LS in my photo below has this 9" Ford that I welded-up from scratch using a 96 9C1 housing as a "jig-core", but I just made it 2" narrower @ the bearing ends so that I could fit big tires.
It has 35 spline axles, both 4.75" & 5" bolt circles, but with a small 2.776" hub diameter, "N" center, detroit locker, Wilwood Dynalite 12" discs, Global West lower arms, stock uppers, it fits both my 96 and my 88 cars.


This one (below) I built for my 96 SS, and it has been trial fitted for pinion angle and brake/wheel clearance issues in my 88 LS as well as my 1995 9C1 bare chassis.
It has a Strange aluminum center, TrueTrack, 31 spline Mark Williams Pro-Street axles, 45mm Timken roller axle bearings, 2011 Vette ZO6 brakes, DBA rotors, Johnny Joint upper control arm pivots.
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Ironfistdog



Posts : 2124
Join date : 2011-01-11
Age : 35
Location : Warren, MA

PostSubject: Re: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:33 pm

Thank you very much. ALL your knowledge is completely and MOST appreciated sir.
So basically as long as I can get a complete rear from a boxy all inwould have to do is change the control arm hardware?
If I have a triangulated 4 link system could I make this work???
Any specifics on what I need to grab off a box/bubble to make it swap with ease?
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Machine-De-Zine



Posts : 512
Join date : 2010-11-16
Age : 60
Location : Wrentham

PostSubject: Re: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:18 pm

Now this whole subject has got me to thinking.

I wonder if there is a 73-77 colonnade A-body (small B/C) 8.5" ring gear axle set or complete housing that might bolt right into a 1977 & up B-body.

Might be a good thing for me to look into this possibility. And I should KNOW the answer to this question, Kudd-Demmitt!
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1984twodoor



Posts : 4059
Join date : 2010-03-30
Age : 23
Location : Wilmington/Wakefield/Andover

PostSubject: Re: Question on BOX CAPRICE rear end / spindles   Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:40 pm

Machine-De-Zine wrote:
Now this whole subject has got me to thinking.

I wonder if there is a 73-77 colonnade A-body (small B/C) 8.5" ring gear axle set or complete housing that might bolt right into a 1977 & up B-body.

Might be a good thing for me to look into this possibility. And I should KNOW the answer to this question, Kudd-Demmitt!

There is something I would be interested in knowing! I would love to have a rear like your 9 inch but I simply don't have the budget for it, not right away at least. Though the idea of any 8.5" rear with the boxy bolt circle would be something I would like hearing more about.

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