Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...

Last week I had that no start in the wet. We replaced plugs, wires, cap and rotor. Car ran great. Today, died out twice, 2nd time couldn't restart it. Replaced fuel pump relay and the car started and ran. Now car runs just a bit off. It's just not itself. It also had a surge when going up a hill. Any ideas?

Hows the spray pattern on the injectors look?

95brmw wrote:

Hows the spray pattern on the injectors look?

Not good. Almost like it did when my fuel pump shit the bed. Only difference this time is I get a no start and no CEL. Whereas last time I could start and idle the car and got a code 34

Shot in the dark but filter?

1984twodoor wrote:

Shot in the dark but filter?

Replaced at the same time as the pump. So about 5k/ 7 months on it.

Did you do the harness when you did the pump?
I cant remember

sdstick wrote:

Did you do the harness when you did the pump?
I cant remember

Yes. New sending unit included a new harness. Quick rundown, in past 6 months:

New pump, sending unit, fuel filter, harness, plugs, wires, cap, rotor.

However, based on what the TBI did this am, im thinking the pump shit the bed, that or the hose that connects the pump to the sending unit.

Can you check the fuel pressure?
You made me think electrical when you said the FPR fixed it...kinda
But if your harness was good I think you have to look at the pump.
I'm still having a hard time believing these replacement pumps dont hold up.
Was it an AC Delco?

sdstick wrote:

Can you check the fuel pressure?

No way to hook up the gauge. The TBI cars dont have a test fitting. However, the throttle body isnt getting enough gas, just like the last time the pump shit.

sdstick wrote:

You made me think electrical when you said the FPR fixed it...kinda

Same here. But my guess is that swapping them out sorta jump started the pump and got it going again, albeit briefly.

sdstick wrote:

But if your harness was good I think you have to look at the pump.
I'm still having a hard time believing these replacement pumps dont hold up.

Me neither. But like any man made thing they can and will break. Guess I just got a lemon.

sdstick wrote:

Was it an AC Delco?

Bosch. I wish any of the stores around here had Delco.

Every GM dealer has delco fuel pumps they can order.

Check Advance? They are one of the only places I can get delco stuff locally, sometimes.

West Springfield Auto Parts in Wilmington is an AC Delco dealer...I'm surprised they don't have a store out in your area.

GasTT wrote:

Every GM dealer has delco fuel pumps they can order.

The only Chevy dealer near me that had them wanted $300.

95brmw wrote:

Check Advance? They are one of the only places I can get delco stuff locally, sometimes.

They only carry Airtex and Bosch.

1984twodoor wrote:

West Springfield Auto Parts in Wilmington is an AC Delco dealer...I'm surprised they don't have a store out in your area.

They do, in West Springfield of all places but its not the most convenient for me to get to.

In any event, the Bosch one is still under warranty and I can't afford to buy a brand new fuel pump right now so I have to just hope this one will work properly. Man... i'm starting to sound like a broken record here.

Cadet57 wrote:

GasTT wrote:

Every GM dealer has delco fuel pumps they can order.

The only Chevy dealer near me that had them wanted $300.

95brmw wrote:

Check Advance? They are one of the only places I can get delco stuff locally, sometimes.

They only carry Airtex and Bosch.

1984twodoor wrote:

West Springfield Auto Parts in Wilmington is an AC Delco dealer...I'm surprised they don't have a store out in your area.

They do, in West Springfield of all places but its not the most convenient for me to get to.

In any event, the Bosch one is still under warranty and I can't afford to buy a brand new fuel pump right now so I have to just hope this one will work properly. Man... i'm starting to sound like a broken record here.

Luckily you've got two cars. You'd be better off doing everything right than just putting in cheaper parts. Then again, you can't know the pumps the problem until you get another one. I'd just wait a few pay checks and grab a delco. Try seafoaming everything too

Did you replace the fuel filters inside injectors? My 92 wagon had issues with the same thing. The surging was caused by a failing egr, but I had a "starving" condition (like Karen Carpenter) and I got a tbi rebuild kit from advance, i needed just the gaskets but while looking through the kit I saw all the little filters and decided to swap those too. Fixed it the first time. Also my replacement sending unit was a cheap one. My brother takes the car to ME,NH and NJ put on a million more miles no issues.

Also for checking fuel pressure: Part number cp7817, available at Autozone. It's made by actron.

http://www.rmsautoparts.com/proddetail.php?prod=EP381
Are wagon pumps the same as Impala pumps?

sdstick wrote:

http://www.rmsautoparts.com/proddetail.php?prod=EP381
Are wagon pumps the same as Impala pumps?

AFAIK, all b-bodies use the same pump 91-96.

Cadet57 wrote:

sdstick wrote:

http://www.rmsautoparts.com/proddetail.php?prod=EP381
Are wagon pumps the same as Impala pumps?

AFAIK, all b-bodies use the same pump 91-96.

TBI and LT1 fuel pumps are different. Mike H. parts manager at a Chev garage will confirm.

Tom C.

silverfox103 wrote:

Cadet57 wrote:

sdstick wrote:

http://www.rmsautoparts.com/proddetail.php?prod=EP381
Are wagon pumps the same as Impala pumps?

AFAIK, all b-bodies use the same pump 91-96.

TBI and LT1 fuel pumps are different. Mike H. parts manager at a Chev garage will confirm.

Tom C.

you are correct sir!

93 tbi fuel pump is part # 25167089 delco # ep387. 10% over my cost is $53.58. That is pump only.

I remember Justin put in a new sender because he had to wait for it.
So the new Delco is somewhat cheap IMO why not just jump on it.
That post about filters in the injectors made me think tho (you know...before dropping the tank again). Its not really THAT bad a job.

It's not the pump

Got it all back together, started the car drove fine til I got to a red light and it started to sputter. Never stalled but I had to feather it at every light. So tomorrow I'm going to order the adapter to check fuel pressure to confirm once and for all, but I'm going to have to look at what else it could be.

Cadet57 wrote:

It's not the pump
Got it all back together.....

So what did you take apart?

sdstick wrote:

Cadet57 wrote:

It's not the pump
Got it all back together.....

So what did you take apart?

Well, dropped the tank, swapped the pump and put it all back together. Still runs weird.

try checking the vacuum ports on the throttle body.
when i first got my car it had some issues.
cured a few of them when i found out all the vacuum passages on the throttle body where clogged up with gunk.

start with the large one that goes to the pcv valve.
mine was plugged solid right to the end.

if you find this to be the case remove the throttle body(very easy job).
just remember to reset the trans cable properly when reinstalling.
from the bottom of the throttle body you can see all the passages.
clean real good in the pocket that the iac valve( idle air control valve) is,
and make sure to get the seat that the valve contacts, remove the valve if you have to. i think you only need to reset them if there new.
the iac valve is on the pass side rear of the throttle body, takes like a 7/8 wrench to remove.

Pull and cap the vac line to the EGR, see if that does anything. If the solenoid failed it could be constantly on, that would cause it to run like crap.

laidlow91 wrote:

try checking the vacuum ports on the throttle body.
when i first got my car it had some issues.
cured a few of them when i found out all the vacuum passages on the throttle body where clogged up with gunk.

start with the large one that goes to the pcv valve.
mine was plugged solid right to the end.

if you find this to be the case remove the throttle body(very easy job).
just remember to reset the trans cable properly when reinstalling.
from the bottom of the throttle body you can see all the passages.
clean real good in the pocket that the iac valve( idle air control valve) is,
and make sure to get the seat that the valve contacts, remove the valve if you have to. i think you only need to reset them if there new.
the iac valve is on the pass side rear of the throttle body, takes like a 7/8 wrench to remove.

Thanks Ant, I'll check this tomorrow after work. What should I use to clean it all out? TBI spray? Also how do I reset the trans cable? I lost my FSM or else I wouldnt ask (great time to do that....)

95brmw wrote:

Pull and cap the vac line to the EGR, see if that does anything. If the solenoid failed it could be constantly on, that would cause it to run like crap.

Will try that tomorrow. Also ordered a fuel pressure adapter so I can hook up a test gauge to it to finally say for sure weather its fuel related or not. Could it be a bad sending unit?

Thing is when driving it runs fine. But at idle it just feels weird. Like its not itself. Its hard to explain but I hope you know what I mean, the car just doesn't feel "right"

If you replaced the pump I really can't see it being related to the FP or sending unit. Did the spray pattern improve with the new pump? Might be worth looking into the filters in the injectors like Ironfistdog mentioned. Could also be the regulator in the throttle body.

95brmw wrote:

If you replaced the pump I really can't see it being related to the FP or sending unit. Did the spray pattern improve with the new pump? Might be worth looking into the filters in the injectors like Ironfistdog mentioned. Could also be the regulator in the throttle body.

To me it *looks* like it did. I'll take another video tomorrow and let you guys be the judge. Who knows, what I think its "ok" could be horrible. Well, since I still have the Jetta, getting it going isn't a super priority, and I'm not going to start throwing parts at it until that fuel fitting comes in so I can make sure the throttle body is at least getting enough fuel and we can go from there. For reference what sort of pressure should I have at the TB? After that I think I may invest in that throttle body rebuild kit.

Also, when you say that TB regulator, is this what you are referring to: http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/1993-Chevrolet-Caprice/Fuel-Pressure-Regulator/_/N-izlezZ8vd1h

Cadet57 wrote:

laidlow91 wrote:

try checking the vacuum ports on the throttle body.
when i first got my car it had some issues.
cured a few of them when i found out all the vacuum passages on the throttle body where clogged up with gunk.

start with the large one that goes to the pcv valve.
mine was plugged solid right to the end.

if you find this to be the case remove the throttle body(very easy job).
just remember to reset the trans cable properly when reinstalling.
from the bottom of the throttle body you can see all the passages.
clean real good in the pocket that the iac valve( idle air control valve) is,
and make sure to get the seat that the valve contacts, remove the valve if you have to. i think you only need to reset them if there new.
the iac valve is on the pass side rear of the throttle body, takes like a 7/8 wrench to remove.

Thanks Ant, I'll check this tomorrow after work. What should I use to clean it all out? TBI spray? Also how do I reset the trans cable? I lost my FSM or else I wouldnt ask (great time to do that....)

i like to use brake clean, because it dries clean.
if yours is as bad as mine was youll have to start with a screwdriver or drill bit(not in a drill, just in your hand), it was like cement in the ports.
once most of the large peices are out of the way, i finished cleaning it up with q tips and brake clean.
the trans cable, without looking at it i cant remember exactly how its reset but there a button on the end close to the throttle body.
you push that in and slide the little ball back til its touching the large peice.
then by hand move the linkage to full throttle.
thats it..your done..
the little ball should be back out an inch or so from the large peice like it was when you started.

laidlow91 wrote:

Cadet57 wrote:

laidlow91 wrote:

try checking the vacuum ports on the throttle body.
when i first got my car it had some issues.
cured a few of them when i found out all the vacuum passages on the throttle body where clogged up with gunk.

start with the large one that goes to the pcv valve.
mine was plugged solid right to the end.

if you find this to be the case remove the throttle body(very easy job).
just remember to reset the trans cable properly when reinstalling.
from the bottom of the throttle body you can see all the passages.
clean real good in the pocket that the iac valve( idle air control valve) is,
and make sure to get the seat that the valve contacts, remove the valve if you have to. i think you only need to reset them if there new.
the iac valve is on the pass side rear of the throttle body, takes like a 7/8 wrench to remove.

Thanks Ant, I'll check this tomorrow after work. What should I use to clean it all out? TBI spray? Also how do I reset the trans cable? I lost my FSM or else I wouldnt ask (great time to do that....)

i like to use brake clean, because it dries clean.
if yours is as bad as mine was youll have to start with a screwdriver or drill bit(not in a drill, just in your hand), it was like cement in the ports.
once most of the large peices are out of the way, i finished cleaning it up with q tips and brake clean.
the trans cable, without looking at it i cant remember exactly how its reset but there a button on the end close to the throttle body.
you push that in and slide the little ball back til its touching the large peice.
then by hand move the linkage to full throttle.
thats it..your done..
the little ball should be back out an inch or so from the large peice like it was when you started.

Sweet. Thanks again man. I'll take a peek after work tomorrow. May also invest in that TB rebuild kit just for shits and giggles.

Started poking around some more. No major gunk in the vac lines. Heres another video of the spray pattern post fuel pump replacement. Might wanna turn the sound down, its a bit loud.

Aside from the crappy fuel spray (could just be clogged injectors/internal filters) how's the coil and coil harness wires? Any corrosion or shorts? Did you check the spark plugs againt the frame for spark? Properly gapped and not fouled? I would think it could be a failing coil if hour getting at least some fuel and that many components of the fuel system were replaced. Swap the coil from the black sedan for $h!ts and giggles.

Ironfistdog wrote:

Aside from the crappy fuel spray (could just be clogged injectors/internal filters) how's the coil and coil harness wires? Any corrosion or shorts?

No corrosion. All new parts, literally 100 miles on the plugs, wires, cap and rotor. No shorts from what I can see. Part of me really feels like its NOT the fuel pump/sending unit/ harness. I just can't picture two pumps being bad. And I'm pretty cynical. I'm starting to feel like its the TBI.

Ironfistdog wrote:

Did you check the spark plugs againt the frame for spark?

Yes.

Ironfistdog wrote:

Properly gapped and not fouled?

all gapped @ 35. I can't imagine they'd be fouled. At least I hope not with 100 miles on them.

Ironfistdog wrote:

I would think it could be a failing coil if hour getting at least some fuel and that many components of the fuel system were replaced. Swap the coil from the black sedan for $h!ts and giggles.

I'll give that a shot tomorrow. I'm thinking of just buying that TBI rebuild kit just to rule it out. Would there be a code associated with a bad coil or the TB filters being clogged?

Btw, when I get this bastard running again I need to talk to you about that 9C1 cluster swap.

No codes for coil I don't think, idk too much about obd1 I'm either obd2 or carbureted old skool's. An est code is 42 I believe but that's not for the coil. I can do the 9c1 swap in about an hr. I gotta do Anthony's too. I'm hustling on the caddy to try and make it to the round up. I think I might have to do a valve job on the drivers head. I'm getting misfires and bad o2 on the drivers side only. NO IDEA?!?! :-( anyway...... I'd swap out the coil since it's the only part of the ignition tuneup you didn't do just to see. Plus I agree About the fuel delivery, can't be that bad of luck. Also on the fuel side of this is there any way you have water in the fuel? Are the vent lines to the tank hooked up? Not clogged up or anything? No problems with timing chain? You weren't hearing any timing slap or noise? Does it start at all now?

Ironfistdog wrote:

I can do the 9c1 swap in about an hr. I gotta do Anthony's too.

Yeah he mentioned it to me. We'll all have to get a day and get er done.

Ironfistdog wrote:

I'd swap out the coil since it's the only part of the ignition tuneup you didn't do just to see. Plus I agree About the fuel delivery, can't be that bad of luck.

I'll try it tomorrow since I have the day off. That fuel pressure fitting will be here Friday so I can see whats going to the TB once and for all. Probably will just end up buying the rebuild kit this weekend. (So much for the Big E )

Ironfistdog wrote:

Also on the fuel side of this is there any way you have water in the fuel?

I can't imagine how.

Ironfistdog wrote:

Are the vent lines to the tank hooked up? Not clogged up or anything?

Nope. All lines are hooked up. Checked them for clogs when we dropped the tank. All clear.

Ironfistdog wrote:

No problems with timing chain? You weren't hearing any timing slap or noise?

None that I know of. Didn't hear anything out of the ordinary.

Ironfistdog wrote:

Does it start at all now?

Still starts and runs. Just has the stutter at idle. I'm not comfortable taking it out on the streets only because I dont want a repeat performance of getting stuck at a light.

Also on the egr note, if it's running and your getting it to go but it's rough idling at lights try pressing on the egr diaphragm it should make the car run rough almost to a stall and when you let it go it should come back to idle. I also would check the idle air control valve which always gives me grief with every b-body I've owned. Should be able to rock it back and forth till it bottoms out. If not it's junk.

Ironfistdog wrote:

Also on the egr note, if it's running and your getting it to go but it's rough idling at lights try pressing on the egr diaphragm it should make the car run rough almost to a stall and when you let it go it should come back to idle.

So I assume if I have a bad EGR the motor won't come back, it'll just stall out?

Ironfistdog wrote:

I also would check the idle air control valve which always gives me grief with every b-body I've owned. Should be able to rock it back and forth till it bottoms out. If not it's junk.

What would I be looking for here? If I can't move it its bad?

If you press on the diaphram and there is NO change in engine performance it's a bad egr. a properly working valve will cause the engine to stumble. The iac valve when removed should have the pintle sticking out , with your thumb on the tip you should be able to rock it back and forth until it goes all the way into the valve body. Clean it down with carb cleaner before pressing on it to remove carbon and gunk. When you reinstall it will make the engine run choppy until you take it for a small spin to reset the pintle distance. If you cannot move the pintle it's bad.

Think I found my issue. The fuel pressure regulator is almost plugged solid with some kind of black shit. Will not come out for anything. Bought a TB rebuild kit at advance. Was for the incorrect car. So spec ordered a new one, should be here monday.

Cadet57 wrote:

Think I found my issue. The fuel pressure regulator is almost plugged solid with some kind of black shit. Will not come out for anything. Bought a TB rebuild kit at advance. Was for the incorrect car. So spec ordered a new one, should be here monday.

how did you go about finding this out???
only reason im asking is the pressure reg. is not very easy to get to.
did you already remove the throttle body????
did you disconnect the fuel lines??
if the answer to these 2 ??s is no your not looking at the pressure reg.
theres not much to a tbi rebuild kit.

Throttle body is completely disassembled. Noticed the FP regulator was clogged when I was cleaning the throttle body. Would have been reassembled today too if the kit Advance sold me wasn't for the wrong car and they had the proper kit in stock... . The pressure regulator and gasket is included with the TB rebuild kit from A-zone:

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Gp-Sorensen-Throttle-Body-Rebuild-Kit-TBI/_/N-izlezZ8vd9p?itemIdentifier=59521_298875_0_

Hope it works out for you, I rebuilt the TBI in my Blazer when I first got it, was an easy job overall except the FPR looked a little strange (I think someone modded it by drilling the set screw so the fuel flow could be increased?), and when I reinstalled the finished TB, I cracked the whole housing by overtightening the fuel line. Got a second TBI from the junkyard for 20 bucks and replaced the cracked part. Don't overtighten the fuel lines!!!!!!!!!

Justin
i just went through my tbi bin.
ive got a complete unopened rebuild kit and 1 or 2 partials.
not sure when that kit from a-zone will be in, but im headed to my brothers house in CT in the morning.
shoot me a text in the am if you want me to swing by.
six oh three four four zero ate six ate zero.

GAH! This friggin car.

Bought the rebuild kit. Got it all back together. Dropped the TB back in, go to crank no fuel OR spark. Adjusted the fuel line now the fuel pump sprays but still no spark. Now i'm freakin lost.


Edit, think I found the no spark. Put a circuit tester on the coil and it doesn't show power. So bad coil? But if its a bad coil, how would that explain the shitty fuel spray?

Cadet57 wrote:

GAH! This friggin car.

Bought the rebuild kit. Got it all back together. Dropped the TB back in, go to crank no fuel OR spark. Adjusted the fuel line now the fuel pump sprays but still no spark. Now i'm freakin lost.


Edit, think I found the no spark. Put a circuit tester on the coil and it doesn't show power. So bad coil? But if its a bad coil, how would that explain the shitty fuel spray?

The coil & spray are 2 different issues. You just happen to have them both right now
Was the spray good after you"adjusted the fuel line"

sdstick wrote:

Cadet57 wrote:

GAH! This friggin car.

Bought the rebuild kit. Got it all back together. Dropped the TB back in, go to crank no fuel OR spark. Adjusted the fuel line now the fuel pump sprays but still no spark. Now i'm freakin lost.


Edit, think I found the no spark. Put a circuit tester on the coil and it doesn't show power. So bad coil? But if its a bad coil, how would that explain the shitty fuel spray?

The coil & spray are 2 different issues. You just happen to have them both right now
Was the spray good after you"adjusted the fuel line"

Don't know, since the car doesn't turn over I can't compare before and after. When you turn the key to "on" the fuel pump goes on and sprays what looks to be the right amount of fuel, but I'll have to swap the coil first before I can go any further. Oh well, maybe NEXT weekend the car will run.

I'd refuse to believe the coil decided to die right now.
Check your connections & grounds
I'm unfamiliar with your setup but on LT1's the ground cluster right there always hides busted ground wires.
I've also seen the coil connector tywrapped together on the mate to assure connection.
I bet if you go thru the coil 1 wire at a time you'll refind your spark

Another thought, check the grounds right by the T-stat. Those are the main grounds for the engine and PCM. Pull out that one stud and clean it good, could have some corrosion on it.

There are actually a few grounds on TBIs you should clean, that one near the T-stat, I would sand it and put some thing like Vaseline on there after reassembly to keep it from rusting, there should be some more from the engine to the frame and the frame to the body, on my truck I added a few ground straps to help out like one from the alternator body to the engine block.