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 Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...

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Matt Trakker



Posts : 5075
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Age : 35
Location : Reading, MA

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:52 pm

There are no other TBI cars or trucks in that whole yard? I don't even think the module is different depending on displacement, I could be wrong though. I'd pocket a bunch of different ones lol.
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Cadet57



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Age : 29
Location : Chicopee, MA

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:33 pm

Matt Trakker wrote:
There are no other TBI cars or trucks in that whole yard?

There was only one other TBI car and had a caddy on top of it so no opening the hood. No TBI trucks either with one worth taking the time to grab.

I installed the new ICM today, but the cap was fighting me going back on so I took a break before I got too pissed. I'll go back to it tomorrow am. Neutral

sdstick wrote:
Check it again Ferris Twisted Evil

If you say so



Laughing
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bowtiepimp



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:52 pm

this thread sucks! ( too much back n forth...boooooo!).... Razz

...... all this time wasted chasing a stupid problem you could of just did a LT1 swap by now Surprised

.......... just another 2 pennys for your bank.... Bet you got enough two cents from everybody now you could buy a motor for a swap Laughing
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:55 pm

bowtiepimp wrote:
this thread sucks! ( too much back n forth...boooooo!).... Razz

...... all this time wasted chasing a stupid problem you could of just did a LT1 swap by now Surprised

.......... just another 2 pennys for your bank.... Bet you got enough two cents from everybody now you could buy a motor for a swap Laughing

Quiet you! You'll rush my evil plan! I've been slowly convincing my boss to dump our '96 FWB hearse so I can pull the drivetrain Laughing

But until funds/garage space/ mechanical know how/ and me actually getting the motor happens. I need to fix this one. And I really am hoping that this ICM doodad fixes it.
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bowtiepimp



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:00 pm

Cadet57 wrote:
[quote="bowtiepimp"

Quiet you! Don't tempt me! You'll rush my evil plan! I've been slowly convincing my boss to dump our '96 FWB hearse so I can pull the drivetrain Laughing




now your talking..... you should feel him out on a price...... I'd be very interested in the front clip...... Arrow
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:02 pm

bowtiepimp wrote:



now your talking..... you should feel him out on a price...... I'd be very interested in the front clip...... Arrow

It would legit be cheap. Like say sub $1000. Hell, he sold our old '98 Clown Dick to another employee for like $500. And I will def part it out. Thing also has a MINT set of Brougham lace rims with caps on almost brand new white walls. Arrow
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bowtiepimp



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:06 pm

[quote="Cadet57"]
bowtiepimp wrote:





It would legit be cheap. Like say sub $1000. Hell, he sold our old '98 Clown Dick to another employee for like $500. And I will def part it out. Thing also has a MINT set of Brougham lace rims with caps on almost brand new white walls. Arrow


....... Do I smell a winter project Twisted Evil
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:07 pm

[quote="bowtiepimp"]
Cadet57 wrote:
bowtiepimp wrote:





It would legit be cheap. Like say sub $1000. Hell, he sold our old '98 Clown Dick to another employee for like $500. And I will def part it out. Thing also has a MINT set of Brougham lace rims with caps on almost brand new white walls. Arrow


....... Do I smell a winter project Twisted Evil

It depends on my boss really, he's been out car shopping. We just got one new car, now he wants to get rid of the Venture and get a 'Burban and might get rid of the hearse in the process.

But thats for another thread. Right now we need to fix this godforsaken LO5 Laughing
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sdstick



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:19 pm

Way to pull Chris into the back & forth Justin cheers ... Razz

PS: Dont admit you cant put a cap on thats embarrassing Surprised

jk Suspect

_________________
Steve


96BBB 28K 3.42 Bolt-ons
95BBB 100K 3.73 383 New DD...already broke fixt the 4L60E twice
95 Black WB4 Hole...ee...grail
96 Black WB4 No holes in this
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:22 pm

sdstick wrote:


PS: Dont admit you cant put a cap on thats embarrassing Surprised

jk Suspect

I am not ashamed!

I just can't get my fat ham hock hands into the space behind the firewall to get the rear cap bolt threaded so then I scrape my hand on the firewall insulation, swear, try again, scrape my hand, swear, its a vicious cycle. Laughing
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Matt Trakker



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:58 pm

Those caps never feel like they're going on right...just play with it and you'll get it on there. It slides a certain way over the ICM plugs that for some reason always messes me up (for a minute or two anyway).
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:00 pm

Matt Trakker wrote:
Those caps never feel like they're going on right...just play with it and you'll get it on there. It slides a certain way over the ICM plugs that for some reason always messes me up (for a minute or two anyway).

That's pretty much what its doing. But it was getting cold and darkish and I was getting cranky so I decided to call it a night. I'll just get it buttoned up tomorrow morning. Man I am SO hoping it was just this ICM and I can go back to enjoying my tank again....
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sdstick



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:03 pm

If the cap beats up the ICM plugs, thats probably where it all started.

_________________
Steve


96BBB 28K 3.42 Bolt-ons
95BBB 100K 3.73 383 New DD...already broke fixt the 4L60E twice
95 Black WB4 Hole...ee...grail
96 Black WB4 No holes in this
95BBB 189K 3.08 Old DD Stolen...by Matt. Cool
Whine..eee...Silver LS6
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:06 pm

sdstick wrote:
If the cap beats up the ICM plugs, thats probably where it all started.

Which is exactly why I was taking my time putting the cap back on and stopped before I got rough with it. Wink
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sdstick



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:07 pm

You still gonna do the Ferris imitation tommorrow AM? lol!

_________________
Steve


96BBB 28K 3.42 Bolt-ons
95BBB 100K 3.73 383 New DD...already broke fixt the 4L60E twice
95 Black WB4 Hole...ee...grail
96 Black WB4 No holes in this
95BBB 189K 3.08 Old DD Stolen...by Matt. Cool
Whine..eee...Silver LS6
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:08 pm

sdstick wrote:
You still gonna do the Ferris imitation tommorrow AM? lol!

Yes!

Laughing
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Ironfistdog



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Age : 35
Location : Warren, MA

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:53 pm

I have a specific tool for installing the cap. Its only purpose in my tool chest is for installing caps on L03 and L05's......it's a small 1/4" bit driver with half the handle cut off and where the handle meets the blade it's rounded off like a cone. Use a small socket (I believe it's a 7/32??) works everytime without fail.

What color is the hearse? Black or silver?
I may have an lt1/4l60e for sale soon Twisted Evil just an FYI.
Your having this many issues with the tbi motor.....maybe an lt1 is not a good idea Razz

I can see it now: channel 5 news.....Chicopee man was seen today on top of building mumbling "oPtIsParK!!!! Why woUld they Put it at the bottom!!!!!!!" and threatening to jump. Laughing
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1984twodoor



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Age : 23
Location : Wilmington/Wakefield/Andover

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:05 am

Cadet57 wrote:
sdstick wrote:


PS: Dont admit you cant put a cap on thats embarrassing Surprised

jk Suspect

I am not ashamed!

I just can't get my fat ham hock hands into the space behind the firewall to get the rear cap bolt threaded so then I scrape my hand on the firewall insulation, swear, try again, scrape my hand, swear, its a vicious cycle. Laughing

LOL Steve!

You can't complain about a B-Body! Go work on the VW or another small turbo GERMAN ENGINEERING car! Then you can complain!
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:30 am

Ironfistdog wrote:
I can see it now: channel 5 news.....Chicopee man was seen today on top of building mumbling "oPtIsParK!!!! Why woUld they Put it at the bottom!!!!!!!" and threatening to jump. Laughing

Thankfully no high buildings in town. Laughing

But the LT1 swap is a LOOOOOOONG time away. Need to get much better at wrenching first, amongst other things.

1984twodoor wrote:


You can't complain about a B-Body! Go work on the VW or another small turbo GERMAN ENGINEERING car! Then you can complain!

Oddly enough, for the way they shoe horned that engine into the car (Think big block into a golf cart) I can access stuff pretty good. Except the alternator. They put that under the intercooler pipe. Rolling Eyes Laughing

I'm just glad I don't own a 1.8T Passat. You have to remove the front bumper to do the timing belt. Suspect
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:15 pm

Found out why the cap wouldnt go back on. One of the cap nuts broke in half and was stuck. Got that out. Had to get a whole new cap since Autozone doesn't just sell new nuts ( Rolling Eyes ) Thankfully it was still under warranty. Anyways, got the cap back on, wires hooked up. Dead battery Rolling Eyes . Going to jump it when someone comes home since there are no other cars here lol.

Anyways! Whilst hopping around the interwebs for info on my predicament I just discovered this website for diagnosing the ICM. It lists the following symptoms:

* The car (or truck, or mini-van, or van) will Crank but NO START.
* No Spark coming from any of the Spark Plug Wires.
* The Throttle Body Fuel Injectors do not spray gasoline.

The following are usually the most common symptoms of a BAD Spark Plug Wires, or a BAD Distributor Cap and Rotor on this type of GM Distributor Mounted Ignition Control Module:

* The car (or truck, or mini-van, or van) STARTS and RUNS, but with a Misfire.
* The Check Engine light is on.
* Lack of power.
* Rough Idle.
* BAD Gas Mileage.

http://easyautodiagnostics.com/gm_icm_dist/distributor_ign_module_1.php

Why couldn't I have found this like a month ago? Laughing
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Ironfistdog



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:26 pm

Ummmmmmmm if the cap wasn't bolted in on one side, that's your problem right there. I've snapped bolts off in many a distributor. Make sure it's all the way out or you will need to remove distributor and drill it out. A Improperly seated dizzy will cause a ton of problems, rotor not making contact will cause the spark to have to jump, spark plugs may not fire. Est reads misfires etc etc.... Yes it would lead to a no fuel condition too. Jump it and take him for a rip!
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:28 pm

Ironfistdog wrote:
Ummmmmmmm if the cap wasn't bolted in on one side, that's your problem right there. I've snapped bolts off in many a distributor. Make sure it's all the way out or you will need to remove distributor and drill it out. A Improperly seated dizzy will cause a ton of problems, rotor not making contact will cause the spark to have to jump, spark plugs may not fire. Est reads misfires etc etc.... Yes it would lead to a no fuel condition too. Jump it and take him for a rip!

Its all the way out. It split in half. I has both pieces. Laughing Once I jump start it I'm going to cautiously take it around the neighborhood then maybe out onto Rt 33 and hope that it was just this godforsaken pos ICM all along. Arrow
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Ironfistdog



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:13 pm

If the cap wasn't on 100% the icm wouldn't even matter.... Think about it. Problems with stalling, then problems with no spark, then problems with fuel. Engine idles rough, and no start issues. ALL directly after doing the tune up. I think you got the problem licked! We'll see! Gauge is coming soon!!!!! Twisted Evil


Last edited by Ironfistdog on Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Matt Trakker



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:39 pm

Ironfistdog wrote:
If the cap wasn't on 100% the icm wouldn't even matter.... Think about it. Problems with stalling, then problems with no spark, then problems with fuel. Engine idles rough, and no start issues. ALL decently after doing the tune up. I think you got the problem licked! We'll see! Gauge is coming soon!!!!! Twisted Evil

What he said.
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Machine-De-Zine



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Location : Wrentham

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:14 am

Cadet57 wrote:
.

http://easyautodiagnostics.com/gm_icm_dist/distributor_ign_module_1.php

Why couldn't I have found this like a month ago? Laughing

Nice find! I whole heartedly approve, except for the suggestion to puncture a wire to probe it, thats a "no-no".

A co-worker friend (who is also a mechanic) & myself spent some time today going over these EAD.com procedures, while comparing them to those contained in the Factory Manual.

We both agreed on several points. "easyautodiagnostics" virtually duplicates what is in the FSM, but following a methodology that is much simplified and written more or less in layman's terms.

I've been reading FSMs for nearly 2x your age, so I should now apologize to you for assuming that it's language would be so clear & easy for you to extract usable knowledge from.

About a week ago, my first posted suggestion was that you must check the distributor. Book clearly states that the ECM needs pulse signal from the distributor to keep the fuel pump on.

You asked me what to look for in the distributor, well, you have to look at every part, component and wire, step by FSM step, just like in the above EAD.com web site.

A further clarification of this relationship is that the "minimum oil pressure" circuit is electrically "parallel" to the fuel pump relay, and is under certain conditions redundant.

Take note, there are two oil/pres. senders next to the distributor!

I am very glad that you are coming down the "home stretch".

Nothing beats the personal satisfaction of having fixed your own car while earning the added benefit of carrying forward a thorough knowledge of how it works.



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1984twodoor



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:47 am

Hey, on the plus side if it works, look at all of the new parts you've got! I like to do sending units every 6 months too! Arrow
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:24 am

Ironfistdog wrote:
If the cap wasn't on 100% the icm wouldn't even matter.... Think about it. Problems with stalling, then problems with no spark, then problems with fuel. Engine idles rough, and no start issues. ALL directly after doing the tune up. I think you got the problem licked! We'll see! Gauge is coming soon!!!!! Twisted Evil

No the cap was off while troubleshooing, so it wouldn't have been the cause of the issues. So, got the cap, wires, ICM on. Started the car fuel spray looks GREAT. Put it in D, feels like a misfire. So I might have a plug in the wrong order or whatnot. Going to check that this am, but I feel like the ICM may have finally done the trick. If not someone yesterday suggested the fuel/oil pressure switch. Which, apparently if its going bad will cause all of these symptoms too.
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Ironfistdog



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:42 pm

Didn't I ask about the oil pressure switch like half a page up??? scratch

And how can. Diagnose spark with the cap off???
Did u replace the tps yet? also remove the o2 sensor and see if it's pitch Black. That's what ended up being the problem With the caddy. intake leak caused misfires which ruined the o2. Replaced the o2 now it runs pissah!
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Machine-De-Zine



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:39 pm

Cadet57 wrote:
I've already played the "read the FSM" game. And frankly ive done just about everything it says.

Its NOT a bad ECM either. I have literally checked every plug and wire at least 10 times at this point and there is ZERO issues there. So I think at this point its a matter of going back and seeing where something went bad.

This whole scenario is a perfect illustration of why "well paid, good mechanics" follow a logical and systematic set of procedures to test ALL components in a specific sequence, to individually determine which parts are good, and which ones are bad.

The greatest advantage of the FSM is that, compared to the E-A-D.com route that stays focused on just the ignition system in this case, the FSM will encompass ALL PERTINENT DIAGNOSTIC ISSUES required to effect an efficient repair.

The benefits are that both money and time are NOT wasted. That is the primary purpose of the Factory Manual.

I hope you will excuse me for saying this, but when you said last week in response to my first post, you've "played the "read the FSM" game" and "done - everything it says",
I had to stop and wonder, because further up in this thread, it was revealed not only that most of those things were in fact NOT done, but that you had not come to understand the logical interdependent nature in the functioning of these systems.

In a repair shop that sees these problems "on the regular", some "good mechanic" is effectively employing this FSM methodology, or some intelligently abbreviated version that his vast experience has afforded him with the luxury of using.

Nevertheless, he is STILL utilizing the logic of utmost economy of time, and also in the avoidance of changing parts that are NOT defective. [a huge waste of all party's involved valuable time and money]

There really is NO REASON to change ANY parts that can so directly be proven to be "good or bad", unless those parts ARE still working, but are KNOWN to have a variably limited life span, and in the interests of "Preventive Maintenance", changed out.

Be aware that it is possible that someone may have changed out the computer in the past, but the PROM is very specifically tailored to your exact vehicle at the time of original manufacture, and a different PROM may be close, but it can cause issues.

It is highly unlikely that this is a causative issue now, but Iv'e countless times, while fixing an older vehicle, come across some incorrect part/s during my time diagnosing some other (often unrelated) problem.

My point is, keep your eyes open for all potentially problematic issues possible, so that you can in every way make your car more reliable and thus enjoyable for you to own and drive.
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:20 pm

FIXT cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers


Went out this am, I DID have a misfire, one of the plugs came off from when I put the cap back on last night. Put the plug back on. Started it up. Ran friggin pissah. Fuel spray is perfect. Put like 15 miles on so far with no issue. Going to drive it another 15-20 tomorrow. But I think it was the ICM all along.


Ironfistdog wrote:
Didn't I ask about the oil pressure switch like half a page up??? scratch

And how can. Diagnose spark with the cap off???
Did u replace the tps yet? also remove the o2 sensor and see if it's pitch Black. That's what ended up being the problem With the caddy. intake leak caused misfires which ruined the o2. Replaced the o2 now it runs pissah!

Wasn't diagnosing spark with the cap off. Was checking distributor components like MdZ suggested Wink. TPS was swapped with a known good from my junkyard TB, no change. And yes, you did suggest the oil switch, however I thought you were referring to that sensor in the pan. I did not know about that Fuel/Oil pressure switch on the block. Embarassed
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Ironfistdog



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:45 pm

Glad to hear buddy!!!!! Now get them hole filled up and give him a tank of premium as a "Treat" Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:46 pm

Ironfistdog wrote:
Glad to hear buddy!!!!! Now get them hole filled up and give him a tank of premium as a "Treat" Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

It's treat is its body work and new snow tires. Ungrateful bastard that car is. Laughing
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sdstick



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:47 pm

Now go back & see what was right & what was wrong about your methods.
You have furthered your adventure along.... the learning curve affraid

_________________
Steve


96BBB 28K 3.42 Bolt-ons
95BBB 100K 3.73 383 New DD...already broke fixt the 4L60E twice
95 Black WB4 Hole...ee...grail
96 Black WB4 No holes in this
95BBB 189K 3.08 Old DD Stolen...by Matt. Cool
Whine..eee...Silver LS6
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:51 pm

sdstick wrote:
Now go back & see what was right & what was wrong about your methods.
You have furthered your adventure along.... the learning curve affraid

Well, honestly. I think my mistake was assuming it was a fuel issue instead of going back and looking at what was done to the car before it broke. IE, just did a tune up so I should have started there.

Machine-De-Zine wrote:
I hope you will excuse me for saying this, but when you said last week in response to my first post, you've "played the "read the FSM" game" and "done - everything it says",
I had to stop and wonder, because further up in this thread, it was revealed not only that most of those things were in fact NOT done, but that you had not come to understand the logical interdependent nature in the functioning of these systems.

They were in fact done. If I you could see the 25 or so post it notes marking various pages of things in the FSM I thought were relevant to my issue or things I should look at and test you'd be surprised. So yes, I DID play the FSM game, more than once. And I can say with some certainty that many of these things were done more than once so as to avoid throwing parts at the car I did not need. And by the end it came down to the ICM or going back and looking at the last remaining fuel system component, the sending unit. Thankfully I got it right and avoided dropping the tank for no reason.
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Matt Trakker



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:01 pm

S'aucem!

Part of why some ICMs fail is due to them overheating, that metal plate on the bottom contacts the dizzy body and can create heat. Make sure you spooged some of that dielectric grease or whatever it is it comes with when you install...
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:19 am

Matt Trakker wrote:
Make sure you spooged some of that dielectric grease or whatever it is it comes with when you install...

I frosted it like a cupcake! And then forgot it wasn't a cupcake and then I was just in a whole heap of trouble. Thermal paste gives me a tummy ache. Laughing
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sdstick



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:21 am

^^^ A clear example of "I just fixed my car" giddyness^^^ Razz

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96BBB 28K 3.42 Bolt-ons
95BBB 100K 3.73 383 New DD...already broke fixt the 4L60E twice
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:52 pm

sdstick wrote:
^^^ A clear example of "I just fixed my car" giddyness^^^ Razz

Yes. Yes it is.

And before I forget, I want to thank everyone who contributed to helping me fix the 'ol beast. Arrow
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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Today at 6:35 am

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