BADASS of New England

An automobile club for the enthusiast who enjoys the last of the big GM cars. The rear wheel drive B and D bodys. Chevrolet Impala SS, Caprice, 9C1, Buick Roadmaster, Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser, Cadillac Fleetwood
 
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 Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...

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Matt Trakker



Posts : 5075
Join date : 2009-07-30
Age : 35
Location : Reading, MA

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:12 pm

Maybe the FPR is messed up? IIRC, when I got my rebuild kit, all that did for the FPR was this orange rubber gasket...thingy.
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Cadet57



Posts : 4476
Join date : 2010-03-14
Age : 29
Location : Chicopee, MA

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:15 pm

Matt Trakker wrote:
Maybe the FPR is messed up? IIRC, when I got my rebuild kit, all that did for the FPR was this orange rubber gasket...thingy.

Same here. Did yours have this little brass thing in the middle?

I'll finish the swap tomorrow. Fingers crossed that cures it. I have no idea what else it could be.
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:04 pm

Ok, so the wagon died on my father today. Car has FULL tank. Calls me, says the car died and won't start. Fuel needle moved from F to E then to half then it just dies. Billy Mac just posted this:

IMPALADAKID wrote:

Almost sounds like a ground going to the sending unit.

On the wagon, that is the one that's behind the drivers side tail light, correct?

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silverfox103



Posts : 1475
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Location : Littleton, NH & St. Simons Island, GA

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:19 pm

That is correct. Like Steve said, use your meter and make sure you have continuity (beep!). Carefully inspect the grounds, make sure the metal is clean where they terminate. You're close.

Tom
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:21 pm

silverfox103 wrote:
That is correct. Like Steve said, use your meter and make sure you have continuity (beep!). Carefully inspect the grounds, make sure the metal is clean where they terminate. You're close.

Tom

I can't find my FSM at the moment (figures...) But that ground wire runs to where? The tank harness?
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Cadet57



Posts : 4476
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Age : 29
Location : Chicopee, MA

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:47 pm

silverfox103 wrote:
That is correct. Like Steve said, use your meter and make sure you have continuity (beep!). Carefully inspect the grounds, make sure the metal is clean where they terminate. You're close.

Tom

We have continuity at the rear ground. So my next logical guess is a shitty sending unit?
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sdstick



Posts : 4278
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Location : Revere, MA

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:43 pm

Did you check for power there too (Gray IIR)?
Set meter to VDC touch 1 end to connector gray & other end to ground (frame or whatever) should read 12V.
If you jump 12V to the red connector we showed you under the hood to battery + you should also get a solid 12V down at the plug on that same gray wire.
Doesnt hurt to confirm this. The fact that the car runs means it gets 12V then. Checking it when it dies is more fitting.

Remind me....do you have a coolant temp sensor? Did that get checked?
When the car dies, is it when it gets hot?
Did you ever put the pedal to the floor to see if it'll start?
This is starting to drive me as crazy as it has you

_________________
Steve


96BBB 28K 3.42 Bolt-ons
95BBB 100K 3.73 383 New DD...already broke fixt the 4L60E twice
95 Black WB4 Hole...ee...grail
96 Black WB4 No holes in this
95BBB 189K 3.08 Old DD Stolen...by Matt. Cool
Whine..eee...Silver LS6
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Cadet57



Posts : 4476
Join date : 2010-03-14
Age : 29
Location : Chicopee, MA

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:53 pm

sdstick wrote:
Did you check for power there too (Gray IIR)?
Set meter to VDC touch 1 end to connector gray & other end to ground (frame or whatever) should read 12V.
If you jump 12V to the red connector we showed you under the hood to battery + you should also get a solid 12V down at the plug on that same gray wire.
Doesnt hurt to confirm this. The fact that the car runs means it gets 12V then. Checking it when it dies is more fitting.

I'll check this tomorrow.

sdstick wrote:
Remind me....do you have a coolant temp sensor? Did that get checked?

Replaced with a known good sensor. No change.

sdstick wrote:
When the car dies, is it when it gets hot?

It's for the most part random. Sometimes it'll die after going 2 miles, other times after 30+ miles. Sunday when it died my father drove it 6 miles and poof.

sdstick wrote:
Did you ever put the pedal to the floor to see if it'll start?

It doesn't.

sdstick wrote:
This is starting to drive me as crazy as it has you

You can say that again. The part that kills me is that in my mind I feel like i'm running out of things it could be yet still no solution.
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sdstick



Posts : 4278
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Location : Revere, MA

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:35 pm

Wiring diagram I saw has the fuel pump/sender ground near center of left "D" pillar. Is that the ground connection you checked? The ground goes from there thru the harness into the tank to the gauge resistor then jumps to the fuel pump. If the ground was efin up you would get that erratic fuel gauge thing your Dad saw. The sender fuel gauge problem seems like its ground related. If its got 12V all the time it can only be the ground. Assuming you've got fuel pressure all the time, I'd have to look at the in tank sender harness or its connections on the sender.
I HATE to tell you to go into the tank again, but.....

Do wagons have a fusible link in your + battery cable?

EDIT: Dont worry, it's something stupid. We'll find it even if I have to drive down there & check every goddang thing

_________________
Steve


96BBB 28K 3.42 Bolt-ons
95BBB 100K 3.73 383 New DD...already broke fixt the 4L60E twice
95 Black WB4 Hole...ee...grail
96 Black WB4 No holes in this
95BBB 189K 3.08 Old DD Stolen...by Matt. Cool
Whine..eee...Silver LS6
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Machine-De-Zine



Posts : 512
Join date : 2010-11-16
Age : 60
Location : Wrentham

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:13 am

I've had two LO5 vehicles with very similar problems to yours.

You must check your distributor, this was the one of the causes (both vehicles) of the issues I had that seem so much like your symptoms.

The "fatter" B-body distributors on 91-93 L03-L05 engines require the larger entry hole machined into the Caprice intake manifold. (for R&R purposes)

Check out this internet find,
http://chevythunder.com/gm_throttle_body_injection_pg_1.htm

Find the distributor parts you need here.
http://www.gmpartsgiant.com/components/1992-chevrolet-caprice~distributor-ignition-gm02069b0102-l05m301bl19.html

Your problems are intermittent and may very well be from the distributor or some of it's internal components.

I also had numerous headaches with in-tank fuel pumps.

Multiple brands failed to deliver reliable fuel delivery performance until I installed genuine Walbro pumps
http://www.ebay.com/itm/REAL-Walbro-255LPH-High-Pressure-Flow-Intank-Fuel-Pump-?cmd=ViewItem&fits=Year%3A1993%7CModel%3ACaprice&hash=item4157a66582&item=280643396994&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr#ht_4469wt_907
or,
http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=GSS242&eq=&Tp=
or,
http://treperformance.com/i-888-chevy-caprice-impala-oem-replacement-fuel-pump-1985-1990.html

You can not overlook the real possibility of having fuel pump wiring and harness related issues on these cars.

Racetronix sells a solution to these woes.

Read what they have to say down the page, "why use a Racetronix fuel pump upgrade harness?" on this link.
http://www.racetronix.biz/customkititems.asp?kc=RFPK%2D004&eq=

*
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Cadet57



Posts : 4476
Join date : 2010-03-14
Age : 29
Location : Chicopee, MA

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:53 pm

Machine-De-Zine wrote:
You must check your distributor

What am I looking for?

Machine-De-Zine wrote:
The "fatter" B-body distributors on 91-93 L03-L05 engines require the larger entry hole machined into the Caprice intake manifold. (for R&R purposes)

Ok? Wouldn't I already have the proper intake? confused

Machine-De-Zine wrote:
Your problems are intermittent and may very well be from the distributor or some of it's internal components.

Distributors cause a NO FUEL issue? confused

Machine-De-Zine wrote:
I also had numerous headaches with in-tank fuel pumps.

The pump is fine.

Machine-De-Zine wrote:
You can not overlook the real possibility of having fuel pump wiring and harness related issues on these cars.

Racetronix sells a solution to these woes.

Read what they have to say down the page, "why use a Racetronix fuel pump upgrade harness?" on this link.
http://www.racetronix.biz/customkititems.asp?kc=RFPK%2D004&eq=

*

For $200 they can keep it. I simply cannot justify that amount of money if its a matter of replacing a defective fuel sending unit which I can replace for free under warranty.

sdstick wrote:

I HATE to tell you to go into the tank again, but.....

I've resigned myself to this Laughing

sdstick wrote:
Do wagons have a fusible link in your + battery cable?

Yes, I assume you mean the fuel pump fuse under the hood? The fuse is fine.

sdstick wrote:
EDIT: Dont worry, it's something stupid. We'll find it even if I have to drive down there & check every goddang thing

I mean, if you've got the time..... Wink

All kidding aside I appreciate everyone's help. Just want my beast back on the road *sigh*
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95brmw



Posts : 1431
Join date : 2009-11-10
Age : 32
Location : Connecticut

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:45 pm

I think were gonna need a "get Justin's damn caprice running" get together Shocked

Are there any TBI cars in the yards near you? I would cut the vehicle side of the connector to the sending unit off a yard car and temporarily hard wire it into the car to see if the issue goes away. Run a positive line, ground it somewhere and just leave out the gas gauge for now.
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Cadet57



Posts : 4476
Join date : 2010-03-14
Age : 29
Location : Chicopee, MA

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:59 pm

95brmw wrote:
I think were gonna need a "get Justin's damn caprice running" get together Shocked

Honestly. I really have thought about it. I'm free this weekend! Laughing

95brmw wrote:
Are there any TBI cars in the yards near you? I would cut the vehicle side of the connector to the sending unit off a yard car and temporarily hard wire it into the car to see if the issue goes away. Run a positive line, ground it somewhere and just leave out the gas gauge for now.

Yeah, that '93 RMW where I pulled that TB and ECU. If the rain holds off tomorrow am. I might swing down and pull some pieces.
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Matt Trakker



Posts : 5075
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Age : 35
Location : Reading, MA

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:18 pm

I wasn't going to post this because it made me feel stupid, but can't TBIs not get fuel because of an ignition component not sending a signal to the computer?

On my old Blazer, it died going down the road out of nowhere. No warning or anything whatsoever. Rolled it off the road, got picked up by my father, and for some reason guessed ign. module because the truck's starter would crank but not fire. Got a parts store module and installed it. Truck fired right up and I freaked out because I guessed right, got in the truck and went on my way. But, whenever I stopped the truck at a traffic light or anything in "D", it would run for about 4 seconds then just die. However it fired right back up, and didn't do this in Park. WTF?

Finally I got into parts-throwing mode, and put a whole new GM distributor in there. It was complete with module, cap, rotor, etc.

It fixed the problem. I don't know if it was the pick-up coil in it, or what. I did no diagnosis on this problem like an intelligent person would do. But it was fixed, and never did it again.

Later on when I was getting rid of some crap I took the old distributor and returned the old module by saying it didn't work (it had a warranty), then looked at it closer and saw there was a HUGE bubble in it. Guy at the store told me that was a sign it was no good. So, I think that may have been the problem, and the new dist.'s module was the real solution that fixed it all. Apparently non-GM modules are garbage?

Basically what I am saying is maybe it could still be something "ignition" related?
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:26 pm

Matt Trakker wrote:
I wasn't going to post this because it made me feel stupid, but can't TBIs not get fuel because of an ignition component not sending a signal to the computer?

On my old Blazer, it died going down the road out of nowhere. No warning or anything whatsoever. Rolled it off the road, got picked up by my father, and for some reason guessed ign. module because the truck's starter would crank but not fire. Got a parts store module and installed it. Truck fired right up and I freaked out because I guessed right, got in the truck and went on my way. But, whenever I stopped the truck at a traffic light or anything in "D", it would run for about 4 seconds then just die. However it fired right back up, and didn't do this in Park. WTF?

Finally I got into parts-throwing mode, and put a whole new GM distributor in there. It was complete with module, cap, rotor, etc.

It fixed the problem. I don't know if it was the pick-up coil in it, or what. I did no diagnosis on this problem like an intelligent person would do. But it was fixed, and never did it again.

Later on when I was getting rid of some crap I took the old distributor and returned the old module by saying it didn't work (it had a warranty), then looked at it closer and saw there was a HUGE bubble in it. Guy at the store told me that was a sign it was no good. So, I think that may have been the problem, and the new dist.'s module was the real solution that fixed it all. Apparently non-GM modules are garbage?

Basically what I am saying is maybe it could still be something "ignition" related?

You know. That might make sense. Considering the car first started acting up a week after doing cap/rotor/plugs/wires. Maybe the current distributor has no idea what to do with all these new parts and said F it...
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:27 pm

Something that popped into my head. Ok, lets say it IS the distributor and its causing fuel to be cut. That still doesn't explain the erratic fuel gauge, does it?
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silverfox103



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Age : 21
Location : Littleton, NH & St. Simons Island, GA

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:00 am

I don't know how it ties in, but the car ran good until you tuned it up. That was the start of the problems.
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:08 am

silverfox103 wrote:
I don't know how it ties in, but the car ran good until you tuned it up. That was the start of the problems.

Thats my line of thinking as well. As i've said before, i'm pretty cynical, but even for me it dying after the tune up is a hell of a coincidence.
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Ironfistdog



Posts : 2124
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Age : 35
Location : Warren, MA

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:35 am

You didn't crack the cap by over tightening it did you? Perhaps on the back screw? Would definitely cause crappy running/stalling.
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:42 am

Ironfistdog wrote:
You didn't crack the cap by over tightening it did you? Perhaps on the back screw? Would definitely cause crappy running/stalling.

Nope. Plus, remember it's main symptom still is no fuel at idle while in drive. Which again puts more credence to Matt and MDZ's posts last night in regards to the distributor.
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sdstick



Posts : 4278
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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:20 pm

You know how to replace the distributor?

_________________
Steve


96BBB 28K 3.42 Bolt-ons
95BBB 100K 3.73 383 New DD...already broke fixt the 4L60E twice
95 Black WB4 Hole...ee...grail
96 Black WB4 No holes in this
95BBB 189K 3.08 Old DD Stolen...by Matt. Cool
Whine..eee...Silver LS6
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Cadet57



Posts : 4476
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Age : 29
Location : Chicopee, MA

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:47 pm

sdstick wrote:
You know how to replace the distributor?

Yes! Laughing

I just have to wait for payday to get a new one. It's either that or not pay my car insurance. Razz
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1984twodoor



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Age : 23
Location : Wilmington/Wakefield/Andover

PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:23 pm

Cadet57 wrote:
sdstick wrote:
You know how to replace the distributor?

Yes! Laughing

I just have to wait for payday to get a new one. It's either that or not pay my car insurance. Razz

Would a GMPP distrib from an 87 work? I've got one with LOW miles on it in the red caprice. I wont ever use it again.
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:34 pm

1984twodoor wrote:
Cadet57 wrote:
sdstick wrote:
You know how to replace the distributor?

Yes! Laughing

I just have to wait for payday to get a new one. It's either that or not pay my car insurance. Razz

Would a GMPP distrib from an 87 work? I've got one with LOW miles on it in the red caprice. I wont ever use it again.

TBH, I don't know. According to RA the distributors are different in boxes. But if someone else chimes in and says it will work I'll be happy to take it off your hands. How much you looking to get? Also, if it does fit, I'll be out in Weymouth on Sunday so I could probably swing up to your place to pick it up.
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95brmw



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:38 pm

Wouldn't you just need the ignition module and not the whole distributor?
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:41 pm

95brmw wrote:
Wouldn't you just need the ignition module and not the whole distributor?

I don't know? If I just need the module, great! But the car has 135k... how much longer will the original distributor last?
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Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:11 pm

Cadet57 wrote:
how much longer will the original distributor last?
Til it stops working. Wink
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:16 pm

IMPALADAKID wrote:
Cadet57 wrote:
how much longer will the original distributor last?
Til it stops working. Wink

I should have seen that coming. Wink

But for the sake of argument here, if we're discussing this ignition issue. Should I just replace the module or the whole distributor? Laughing
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Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:20 pm

Module first. Why buy a distributer and have to set timing if you don't need too. BTW, have you had the timing set Justin?
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:23 pm

IMPALADAKID wrote:
Module first. Why buy a distributer and have to set timing if you don't need too. BTW, have you had the timing set Justin?

Good point. And yes, we checked the timing, its correct.
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95brmw



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:53 pm

The one in my occ with 112k on it was making noise when I got it. Still, module is much cheaper Very Happy
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1984twodoor



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:27 pm

Go module, theres a big chance you FUBARd a wire or something will using those mitts to pull the rotor off! Make sure the holes for the cap arent stripped and the cap is staying tight!

Is everything plugged in? Check everything before you buy anything.
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95brmw



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:47 pm

1984twodoor wrote:
Go module, theres a big chance you FUBARd a wire or something will using those mitts to pull the rotor off! Make sure the holes for the cap arent stripped and the cap is staying tight!

Is everything plugged in? Check everything before you buy anything.

On that, also check to make sure the pins are still in the connectors. I had a corroded pin break off inside a blower control and never noticed it until I took a close look. It made contact every once in a while, but wouldn't make a connection for the most part.
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Machine-De-Zine



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:08 am

Cadet57 wrote:
Something that popped into my head. Ok, lets say it IS the distributor and its causing fuel to be cut. That still doesn't explain the erratic fuel gauge, does it?


I read above that you, at some point, had an FSM, , ,
Find the book and go to the driveability & emissions section. Then, set aside a good amount of quiet time, just for you and your "good book".
Read about ALL the components in these systems so that you become more familiar with all the interdependent modes of operation.
It is unlikely for you NOT to locate the actual cause/s of these issues if you thoroughly & patiently read, and then carefully and methodically follow the diagnostic procedures within that section.

You should have access to a reasonably good digital volt/ohm meter. An old fashioned test light can be useful for certain things as well.
An OBD-1 ALDL scan tool may also come in handy. You can also do various tests, such as the the EST (electronic spark timing), with a variable DC power supply as well.
Truth is, you don't absolutely need all the tools, for example: the book will tell you how to interpret the flash code sequences on the chk eng light.

Above, I was not suggesting that you just change your distributor (expensive), but that you determine that @ least the EST and ignition system is functioning reliably.
A code 12 or 42 might show up. The ECM is looking for a reference voltage to keep the fuel pump "on" for more than the initial 2 seconds upon engine cranking sequence.
The ECM needs to see and accurately read the proper coolant temp, TPS position, manifold absolute pressure (MAP), and crank signal to determine correct A/F ratio.
Fuel will NOT be delivered if 1) "the ignition is off", or 2) "there is no reference signal from the distributor".
Also, fuel cut-off occurs at very high RPMs to protect the engine. In 1988, the fuel pump for a 4.3 V6 was designed to out-put 18 PSI to the regulator.
The model 220 TBI unit requires between 9 & 13 regulated PSI and the excess fuel is returned to the fuel tank through a separate line. If your car is different, it will say so in your FSM.
In order to properly control the fuel supply, the fuel pump is operated by the ECM through the fuel pump relay and oil pressure switch.
A stuck open EGR can also cause a low air/fuel ratio during cranking.
Make sure that you determine if you have spark (on several plugs) during cranking, this is the first thing to check when the car fails to run!
If no issues exist with your fuel system, then follow the FSM through "ignition system checks".

These are just some suggestions, you have the book and the "sometimes not working" car, thats all you need.
None of us can match or exceed the thoroughness that your FSM can provide you on this forum.
I sometimes have to read an FSM paragraph several times over before it really sinks in what the book is saying.

If you can not get yourself synchronized with the FSM methodology, then you just might be doomed to throwing parts at the problem until you either run out of money or the car gets fixed.
It is WAY better if you can get the car to fail, so that you can spend some time diagnosing the problem/s, because an intermittent failure is MOST frustrating while the car is running perfectly.
My experience is that intermittent failures are usually caused by poor wire/terminal connections, ground-outs, hidden "green-death" wires (corrosion), loose terminal grip, etc.
You can also use a test light or scan tool while the car is running to observe what happens while you giggle and pull on terminal blocks, harnesses, grounds, to induce the failure.
The biggest problem with intermittent failures is that every time a new part is installed, and the car starts working normally, you don't know if the "pot-luck" part actually did fix the problem.
You really need to conclusively pin-point the true cause/s, using the very efficient procedures laid out in the FSM book.

P.S. The 1987 distributor will not fit in the 1993 intake manifold.


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Machine-De-Zine



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:54 pm

-
Another thought that might be helpful.
We are dealing with an ECM that requires certain (several) conditions to be met before it turns on, off or modulates the many out-puts, (functions).
The book will tell you exactly how the ECM computer is programmed so that you know what conditions must be satisfied in order for specific functions to work.
If you did NOT know that oil pressure was one of several pre-requisites, then you might not suspect that a seemingly unrelated problem would be the culprit.

For example: Fuel pump operation is not authorized without a pre-determined minimum oil pressure being reached AND read at the ECM.
In order for the ECM to direct the fuel pump to operate, all problems with the oil pressure requirement must be resolved/satisfied.
1 ) - That includes sufficient oil in your sump,
2 ) - a good oil pump
3 ) - close enough oil clearances (bearings) in the engine to maintain the required O/P.
4 ) - no internal oil passages to be open, such as a missing plug or the ball that is pressed into the oil galley above the oil delivery passage @ the #5 main cap.
5 ) - a good sending unit,
6 ) - a good wire connection on top of the sending unit,
7 ) - good wire to deliver the necessary signal to the ECM.
8 ) - a good wire terminal connection at the ECM.
9 ) - a good ECM & PROM chip.

The above example is just ONE of the several pre-requisites that must be satisfied at the ECM.
All of the above tests can be verified quickly, , , But first, know what pressure the ECM is looking for, therefore, read the FSM.
Install an oil pressure gage at the sending unit hole to the left of the distributor, get an ohm readout of the wire path to the ECM, and do a quick test of (or replace) the sending unit itself.

Next, move on to seeing if the distributor is providing the voltage pulses that the ECM is looking for, if OK, then continue on in this way until a real defect is uncovered.

All ECM controlled functions must be examined using this approach in order for you to decisively conclude what the real causes are to the improper functioning of your car.
That is why it is SO important to read the entire section from the beginning, instead of going just to the car with forum suggested suspicions.

I hope this helps.
-
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:38 pm

I've already played the "read the FSM" game. And frankly ive done just about everything it says. Its either, at this point a bad fuel sending unit or as others have said, a bad ICM. There aren't any electrical issues as i've checked for voltage up and down that car and there aren't any issues. I think you're also missing the fact that the car ran fine before a tune up and now we have an intermittent no fuel issue.

Its NOT a bad ECM either. I have literally checked every plug and wire at least 10 times at this point and there is ZERO issues there. So I think at this point its a matter of going back and seeing where something went bad. As i've said now like 10x I find it hard to believe that literally 7 days after a tune up I develop this fuel issue and it has no relation to the tune up. I just can't accept that anymore.
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Ironfistdog



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:45 pm

Justin, did you replace that temp sensor during the tune up or before?
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:51 pm

Ironfistdog wrote:
Justin, did you replace that temp sensor during the tune up or before?

After, just to rule it out. I have 3 different ones when I was trying to get my temp gauge to work (which hasn't in about a year) Laughing
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Ironfistdog



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:19 pm

Your sure you had put the correct one in is what I'm asking I guess. I remember you saying you replaced one on top of the intakes. (the coolant temp sensor for the gauge should be on the cylinder head drivers side) to be honest I have no idea what that top one does.... But if it has anything to do with engine control then maybe it's a temp problem? Like a domino effect.

Car starts cold and runs....
As engine heats up temp sensor is not functioning properly....
Which causes the est to not function....
Causing the fuel to cut out.
Engine doesn't start until it's cold again? Maybe intermittently?
My wagon is up on the stands this weekend for "suspension" mods
And I got a few things going on. I'd like to come out again and spend some real time with it. Maybe do a couple laps around the block. This time not in the rain or distracted by locked in keys. Lol. I didn't know we were in walking distance of a parts store until I left lol! If you organize a mod day I'm down to come out!
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Matt Trakker



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:30 pm

Like mentioned, on a TBI the sensor in the d/s head is for the gauge on the dash. The CTS in the intake near the water neck is different, and gives a reading to the ECM for emissions control use, etc.
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Ironfistdog



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:16 am

Thats exactly what I'm saying. So so both spots use the same sensor? Or different voltages being used? your gauge doesn't work because you failed to change the correct sensor. Could this be as simple as a mixed up sensor? R are they the same part number?
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:13 am

Ironfistdog wrote:
Thats exactly what I'm saying. So so both spots use the same sensor? Or different voltages being used? your gauge doesn't work because you failed to change the correct sensor. Could this be as simple as a mixed up sensor? R are they the same part number?

They aren't the same sensor, according to Delco. 213-928 is for the head sensor and SU-109 is for the intake sensor. However, the one I am putting into the intake manifold is the correct one for that location (if that makes sense). That said, I think we can rule this out as an issue. I put the original one back into the car and we still have the same issue.
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Ironfistdog



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:20 am

Yup rule it out.
So where are we now as of today? No fuel at all or sometimes.
Spark is: good or bad?
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sdstick



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:57 am

If I recall correctly
He has spark
He has fuel until he doesnt (only needs like 15psi @ the TB which I didnt know)
Fuel drops out randomly( 6mi or 20 mi) & lately, when it does the fuel gauge moves around funny & settles in the wrong place.
He's confirmed power & ground at the outside tank connector to the pump (but I dont think he's checked this when fuel drops out...I'll have to skim back)

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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:40 am

sdstick wrote:
If I recall correctly
He has spark
He has fuel until he doesnt (only needs like 15psi @ the TB which I didnt know)
Fuel drops out randomly( 6mi or 20 mi) & lately, when it does the fuel gauge moves around funny & settles in the wrong place.
He's confirmed power & ground at the outside tank connector to the pump (but I dont think he's checked this when fuel drops out...I'll have to skim back)

Correct on all counts. Only reason I haven't/ cannot check when it dies is usually I'm on a road, holding up traffic, and I'm preoccupied with pushing the car off to the side of the road and swearing. Laughing
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sdstick



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:35 pm

Cadet57 wrote:


sdstick wrote:
Do wagons have a fusible link in your + battery cable?

Yes, I assume you mean the fuel pump fuse under the hood? The fuse is fine.

I mean, if you've got the time..... Wink

Skimmed back.
Doesnt really apply here unless when you die you lose ALL power (or MOST of it) but:
On 1 of the wiring diagrams I looked at it shows the + battery cable coming out, going to a terminal/distribution block then exiting with a fusible link downstream.
A fusible link is a:
----------------------------
WIKI...
An electrical fusible link is a type of electrical fuse that is constructed simply with a short piece of wire typically four American wire gauge sizes smaller than the wire that is being protected.
For example, an AWG 16 fusible link might be used to protect AWG 12 wiring.
Electrical fusible links are common in high-current automotive applications.
The wire in an electrical fusible link is encased in high-temperature fire-resistant insulation to reduce hazards when the wire melts
----------------------------
You can find this by following the cable out of the terminal block, its always a noticably softer easy flex jumper in the cable (cuz its made of fine stranded smaller gauge wire)
Usually theyre either good or bad but I have seen intermittent power out of them

Is the car running now? Maybe you can start it & let it get up to temp then circle the area so you can troubleshoot when it dies.

Do you have JY part to swap out the ICM ? I waited to long after I skimmed to remember if you tried those yet.
The swap & go method isnt worth a damn until it works cuz you never know on that 1st test ride if your gonna get stranded again.
BTW the fact that you dont have all these pocket items & you DO go to the JY is unforgivable.... Wink




sdstick wrote:
EDIT: Dont worry, it's something stupid. We'll find it even if I have to drive down there & check every goddang thing

_________________
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:26 pm

sdstick wrote:
Is the car running now? Maybe you can start it & let it get up to temp then circle the area so you can troubleshoot when it dies.

Tried that. The problem is it only really dies after being driven above like 30-40mph so I have to get out onto a main road. So its really a catch 22.

sdstick wrote:
Do you have JY part to swap out the ICM ? I waited to long after I skimmed to remember if you tried those yet.
The swap & go method isnt worth a damn until it works cuz you never know on that 1st test ride if your gonna get stranded again.
BTW the fact that you dont have all these pocket items & you DO go to the JY is unforgivable.... Wink

Nope, since the Roadmaster I got all the other parts out of is stacked on another car there is no way for me to reach the distributor. Ironically, its also the only other 5.7 car or truck there...




sdstick wrote:
EDIT: Dont worry, it's something stupid. We'll find it even if I have to drive down there & check every goddang thing

You have more hope than me at this point. Neutral
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sdstick



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:44 pm

Cadet57 wrote:
sdstick wrote:
Is the car running now? Maybe you can start it & let it get up to temp then circle the area so you can troubleshoot when it dies.

Tried that. The problem is it only really dies after being driven above like 30-40mph so I have to get out onto a main road. So its really a catch 22.

OK then, break out the jack stands & sit in it incase something crazy happens ( you know, it drops off) you can stomp the brakes

Cadet57 wrote:
sdstick wrote:
Do you have JY part to swap out the ICM ? I waited to long after I skimmed to remember if you tried those yet.
The swap & go method isnt worth a damn until it works cuz you never know on that 1st test ride if your gonna get stranded again.
BTW the fact that you dont have all these pocket items & you DO go to the JY is unforgivable.... Wink


Nope, since the Roadmaster I got all the other parts out of is stacked on another car there is no way for me to reach the distributor. Ironically, its also the only other 5.7 car or truck there...

So its not mounted on your drivers side head above the coil?... Ok I shouldve known that (remember, I'm an LT1 guy)
This is also interesting because if you were doing a tuneup you'd be all over those wires (I assume) check those connectors & pins again
Unfortunately its a $50 part if you go buy it




Cadet57 wrote:
sdstick wrote:
EDIT: Dont worry, it's something stupid. We'll find it even if I have to drive down there & check every goddang thing

You have more hope than me at this point. Neutral


Relax....when you fix it you'll be happy again (right after you kick yourself in thee azz for not finding this problem earlier

_________________
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96BBB 28K 3.42 Bolt-ons
95BBB 100K 3.73 383 New DD...already broke fixt the 4L60E twice
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:49 pm

sdstick wrote:


OK then, break out the jack stands & sit in it incase something crazy happens ( you know, it drops off) you can stomp the brakes

I suddenly have images of the Ferrari from Ferris Buellers Day Off running thru my head Razz


sdstick wrote:
So its not mounted on your drivers side head above the coil?.

Nope, it sits under the distributor cap.

sdstick wrote:
Unfortunately its a $50 part if you go buy it

$72 after tax for a US made Delco part. Shocked



sdstick wrote:
Relax....when you fix it you'll be happy again (right after you kick yourself in thee azz for not finding this problem earlier

Both are very true! Laughing
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sdstick



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PostSubject: Re: Ok... So Something Else Is Wrong...   Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:02 pm

sdstick wrote:

This is also interesting because if you were doing a tuneup you'd be all over those wires (I assume) check those connectors & pins again
I know its wrong but I'm quoting myself anyway... Laughing

Solid state is usually good...or bad...but if its not dissipating heat it could do funny things & give you a headache
Check it again Ferris Twisted Evil

_________________
Steve


96BBB 28K 3.42 Bolt-ons
95BBB 100K 3.73 383 New DD...already broke fixt the 4L60E twice
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