BADASS of New England

An automobile club for the enthusiast who enjoys the last of the big GM cars. The rear wheel drive B and D bodys. Chevrolet Impala SS, Caprice, 9C1, Buick Roadmaster, Oldsmobile Custom Cruiser, Cadillac Fleetwood
 
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 Roadmaster

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Deputy347K9



Posts : 147
Join date : 2009-04-05
Location : Limington, Maine

PostSubject: Roadmaster   Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:36 pm

Just got off the telephone with "Scot" who purchased the Roadmaster. Very nice individual who keeps me updated on what he is doing to the "Road Warrior" as he call the car.

Seems he was having some major issues at speeds of 75 plus, heavy vibration. First thing that came to mind was the new 373 gears that Ron and installed. They were installed by a muffler shop who had this GREAT mechanic.

Getting under the car one of the first things he noticed with the angle of the tranny. Being that you want about 0 degree from the rear of the tranny to the driveshaft yolk, he found it to be NEGATIVE 12 degrees. Meaning, the tranny has to come out so that he can raise the tunnel so the tranny sets about one one and a half inches higher. While doing this he is also going to remove the differential and correct any issues there.

The Road Warrior is now officially in VA, I would say where it's a tad warmer but that is not so this evening.

Larry
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Tomz9C1



Posts : 1486
Join date : 2009-01-21
Age : 53
Location : Rumford, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:43 pm

Maybe the gears are ok ? He should concentrate on the angle/ DS 1st and see how she runs at that point. I don't think he should touch the gear till he's eliminated the prior, imo.
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sdstick



Posts : 4278
Join date : 2009-03-20
Location : Revere, MA

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:08 pm

I cant believe that car never went over 75???
Who drove that thing? I know Mark Ross did.
I assumed the installer would have taken it out for a beating.
I'm stunned.
The angle discussion was had over on the ISSF as well
seems you really need to re-work the tunnel to get the tranny high enough
Well, if thats what the new owner needs to do to make it his own, thats the way it goes.

_________________
Steve


96BBB 28K 3.42 Bolt-ons
95BBB 100K 3.73 383 New DD...already broke fixt the 4L60E twice
95 Black WB4 Hole...ee...grail
96 Black WB4 No holes in this
95BBB 189K 3.08 Old DD Stolen...by Matt. Cool
Whine..eee...Silver LS6
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silverfox103



Posts : 1475
Join date : 2009-01-25
Age : 21
Location : Littleton, NH & St. Simons Island, GA

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:18 pm

Fishah wrote:

I personally oversaw the T56 installation and am very proud of the result.

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sdstick



Posts : 4278
Join date : 2009-03-20
Location : Revere, MA

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:24 pm

I dont think Fisha would have taken it out for a beating though.
He probably WANTED to Twisted Evil
but resisted because of his overseers position king

_________________
Steve


96BBB 28K 3.42 Bolt-ons
95BBB 100K 3.73 383 New DD...already broke fixt the 4L60E twice
95 Black WB4 Hole...ee...grail
96 Black WB4 No holes in this
95BBB 189K 3.08 Old DD Stolen...by Matt. Cool
Whine..eee...Silver LS6
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Machine-De-Zine



Posts : 512
Join date : 2010-11-16
Age : 60
Location : Wrentham

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:26 am

Deputy347K9 wrote:
Being that you want about 0 degree from the rear of the tranny to the driveshaft yolk, he found it to be NEGATIVE 12 degrees. Meaning, the tranny has to come out so that he can raise the tunnel so the tranny sets about one one and a half inches higher. While doing this he is also going to remove the differential and correct any issues there.
Larry

I just did a quick calculation.
From the pivot point of the motor mounts to the end of the transmission output shaft, @ NEG. 12 degrees, there would be about a 7.5 inch (+) drop of the tail shaft, which would pretty much drag it along the pavement.

The engine & trans is supposed to have a certain amount of downward tilt when its factory correct, but not 12 degrees, unless the mechanic was A) not on level ground, &/or B) not adding in the factory engineered tilt.

Zero degrees working angle from the transmission tail-shaft to the drive shaft should be avoided to insure reasonable U-joint life. Early U-joint needle bearing failures are caused by "brinnelling" when the caps don't oscillate.

Another thing the GM engineers do, is to shift the pinion over (usually 1.75 inches to the passenger side, in plan view) to insure that U-joints survive in vehicles that spent a greater portion of their life loaded down, which cancels the built-in ride height induced U-joint angularity.

The pinion angle should be pointing down an extra couple of degrees to allow it to rise up under moderate to heavy acceleration loads so that the angular velocities (RPM fluctuations) initiated into the drive shaft @ the transmission yoke are effectively cancelled equally at the pinion yoke.

Vibrations are felt most strongly when the compliance of suspension bushings are stiffly loaded and the driveshaft is torsionally preloaded under acceleration.

-
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M.ROSS



Posts : 443
Join date : 2009-01-21
Age : 57
Location : So.Portland/ME

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:09 am

sdstick wrote:
I cant believe that car never went over 75???
Who drove that thing? I know Mark Ross did.
I assumed the installer would have taken it out for a beating.
I'm stunned.
The angle discussion was had over on the ISSF as well
seems you really need to re-work the tunnel to get the tranny high enough
Well, if thats what the new owner needs to do to make it his own, thats the way it goes.
Ironicly i saw Ron at a traffic light just a couple of days ago/beeped and waved.
YEA I drove it but certainly not hard with Ron riding shotgun. Rolling Eyes
I'm sure i ran about 75 most of the way to NH.
I didn't notice any vibrations.
.
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Machine-De-Zine



Posts : 512
Join date : 2010-11-16
Age : 60
Location : Wrentham

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:22 am

M.ROSS wrote:
sdstick wrote:
I cant believe that car never went over 75???
Who drove that thing? I know Mark Ross did.
I assumed the installer would have taken it out for a beating.
I'm stunned.
The angle discussion was had over on the ISSF as well
seems you really need to re-work the tunnel to get the tranny high enough
Well, if thats what the new owner needs to do to make it his own, thats the way it goes.
Ironicly i saw Ron at a traffic light just a couple of days ago/beeped and waved.
YEA I drove it but certainly not hard with Ron riding shotgun. Rolling Eyes
I'm sure i ran about 75 most of the way to NH.
I didn't notice any vibrations.
.

I have to agree that there was nothing wrong with the installation if you drove all that way at 75 mph with no vibrations.

Sometimes being off even a little bit will cause an unavoidably noticeable vibration or hum, however slight they may be.

When trouble starts on most peoples cars, wild guesses, radical diagnostics and unsubstantiated accusations abound.

-
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toomanytoyz
Club President


Posts : 6870
Join date : 2009-01-20
Age : 40
Location : East Hampstead, NH USA

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:00 am

I've never had that problem on my T56 cars. And I had 4.56's in the caddy and 4.10's in the impala...

I'd look elsewhere for the vibe.

Check the driveshaft. Should be ok for a stocker with 3.73's but may need an aluminum shaft (much higher speeds before it hits it's critical speed) even at that. Mt SS has an Inland Empire shaft with no problems. Believe it or not, I had the stock shaft in my caddy and it was fine! (Pretty sure it was a bigger shaft though, like 3.5 or 4")


_________________
Bill "The Verb" Crovo - Resident Car Slut & Unicorn Hunter

A Toasted Marshmallow, A Long German, A Lame Suburban and expensive dreams...
Missing all my previous B's, D's and V... Sad
American Ricer
www.badassofne.net
"Ooooh! Look! Something shiny!"
NO MORE UNICORNS!!!!!

LOWER IT!!! Wink
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http://impalass.uniquekind.net/
Deputy347K9



Posts : 147
Join date : 2009-04-05
Location : Limington, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:30 am

Last night I sent an email to Ron and this morning I received it back saying invalid address? Glad to hear he is still in the area though.

Laryr
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Fishah



Posts : 1118
Join date : 2009-01-20
Age : 29
Location : Chicago, IL

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:40 am

It's been a year and a half since we did the install, and there has been ZERO issues until now.

Ron always commented on how the trans was butter smooth.

I personally did not drive the car after the install, but I rode shotgun with the mechanic who did the work and it felt AWESOME.

That's how I know the line-lock worked when it was installed as well.

I stand by our work.

I am very sorry to hear of the troubles that the new owner is having though.

I wish him the best of luck and hope everything gets resolved quickly and inexpensively.



Last edited by Fishah on Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fishah



Posts : 1118
Join date : 2009-01-20
Age : 29
Location : Chicago, IL

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:50 am

silverfox103 wrote:
Fishah wrote:

I personally oversaw the T56 installation and am very proud of the result.


That sounded a lot like an accusation...

I think everyone here knows I was involved in the work.

You certainly have not driven the car, or seen this so-called problem first hand, so it may make some sense for you to keep your thoughts to yourself before you go dropping blame.
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Deputy347K9



Posts : 147
Join date : 2009-04-05
Location : Limington, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:43 pm

Bill I agree with you, what miles I did drive the Roadmaster, the shifting was nothing less then perfect and the vehicle tracked down the road properly. Of course I did not really ever jump into it.

Speaking with Scot this evening I found out a couple of new things to add to the saga. When he first purchased the Road Warrior as he calls is, he leveled the car and measured the body at all four wheels, front driver's corner was down about 3/4 of an inch. Discovered the drivers front spring was broken at the lowest point, could have been installed wrong. At this time he replaced all the springs, sway bars, Koni shocks and added a rear frame brace.

Today with the car on the lift as he was ready to remove the tranny he made a major discovery. The driver's side motor mount was busted. Doesn't sound bad other then there is a TWO inch space between the two portions of the mount. Meaning the engine has torqued to the right and hung up.

The engine is hung up due to the transmission being bound up in the tunnel. Seems the tranny rolled right into the floor pan and somehow hung up. That would be the reason for the pinion angle so far off.

I can't remember if Ron had the 410 posi installed after or before the six speed? Ankyways, at some point along the line someone somewhere really pulled one hell of a hole shot with the car as both rear innner fenders is coated with a bunch of rubber! I would not be surprised if this happend at the muffler shop when the young guy installed the gears and then tried it out!

Tomorrow Scot is going to attempt to free the hangup so the engine and tranny will set back in place, of course new mounts are going to be installed.

I will keep you all updated as the project continues.

There are no fingers being pointed just a good learning experience for all of us. Who knows we might run into this problem someday.

Larry
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Machine-De-Zine



Posts : 512
Join date : 2010-11-16
Age : 60
Location : Wrentham

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:06 pm

-
Those stock motor mounts are pretty bullet proof. The design has the engine mounted clam shell and thru-bolt passing through the captured rubber isolator which is encased in its frame-mounted holder. Its not like the old days where the rubber de-laminates from the steel plate and the engine torques up into the hood!

All hot-rod American cars of my youth had a torque strap from the left side of the front of the block, down to the chassis near the steering box, ESPECIALLY in stick-cars!

You could use chain or cable as long as it is flexible enough to allow some compliance, unless you are using solid mounts, like those from Morroso.

-
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toomanytoyz
Club President


Posts : 6870
Join date : 2009-01-20
Age : 40
Location : East Hampstead, NH USA

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:21 pm

You should see MY wheelwells... Wink

_________________
Bill "The Verb" Crovo - Resident Car Slut & Unicorn Hunter

A Toasted Marshmallow, A Long German, A Lame Suburban and expensive dreams...
Missing all my previous B's, D's and V... Sad
American Ricer
www.badassofne.net
"Ooooh! Look! Something shiny!"
NO MORE UNICORNS!!!!!

LOWER IT!!! Wink
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http://impalass.uniquekind.net/
Machine-De-Zine



Posts : 512
Join date : 2010-11-16
Age : 60
Location : Wrentham

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:26 pm

toomanytoyz wrote:
You should see MY wheelwells... Wink

U gots any nice wheel-well PIX?
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Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:58 am

I drove the car. I drove it somewhat hard, but never had it over 70mph as Ron gave me the look. It felt factory smooth to me.

On the other hand, I drove Crovo's car, and he told me to drive it like an asshole. And when I did not, he gave me the look. Razz
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Deputy347K9



Posts : 147
Join date : 2009-04-05
Location : Limington, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:17 am

I can assure you mine will never rot out as they do not make undercoating as strong as melted rubber, not sure where it came from though!
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No Moa



Posts : 3871
Join date : 2009-02-21
Age : 44
Location : Midcoast Maine

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:12 pm

Deputy347K9 wrote:

Speaking with Scot this evening I found out a couple of new things to add to the saga. When he first purchased the Road Warrior as he calls is, he leveled the car and measured the body at all four wheels, front driver's corner was down about 3/4 of an inch. Discovered the drivers front spring was broken at the lowest point, could have been installed wrong. At this time he replaced all the springs, sway bars, Koni shocks and added a rear frame brace.

Today with the car on the lift as he was ready to remove the tranny he made a major discovery. The driver's side motor mount was busted. Doesn't sound bad other then there is a TWO inch space between the two portions of the mount. Meaning the engine has torqued to the right and hung up.

The engine is hung up due to the transmission being bound up in the tunnel. Seems the tranny rolled right into the floor pan and somehow hung up. That would be the reason for the pinion angle so far off.

Larry

Theres your vibration. lol.

Did the mount break or the bolt fall out? I've seen that happen on my 96 9c1.

Hammer will drop that motor back to its former spot! Laughing
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http://www.collectorfbody.com
GasTT



Posts : 2675
Join date : 2009-01-19
Age : 28
Location : Treasure Coast, FL

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:43 pm

IMPALADAKID wrote:
I drove the car. I drove it somewhat hard, but never had it over 70mph as Ron gave me the look. It felt factory smooth to me.

On the other hand, I drove Crovo's car, and he told me to drive it like an asshole. And when I did not, he gave me the look. Razz

You know it revs past 3500, right? Laughing
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toomanytoyz
Club President


Posts : 6870
Join date : 2009-01-20
Age : 40
Location : East Hampstead, NH USA

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:01 pm

IMPALADAKID wrote:
I drove the car. I drove it somewhat hard, but never had it over 70mph as Ron gave me the look. It felt factory smooth to me.

On the other hand, I drove Crovo's car, and he told me to drive it like an asshole. And when I did not, he gave me the look. Razz

Now THAT is funny. Very Happy

lol

Ron may have had a heart attack and keeled over if he ever tossed me the keys and hopped in. Wink

_________________
Bill "The Verb" Crovo - Resident Car Slut & Unicorn Hunter

A Toasted Marshmallow, A Long German, A Lame Suburban and expensive dreams...
Missing all my previous B's, D's and V... Sad
American Ricer
www.badassofne.net
"Ooooh! Look! Something shiny!"
NO MORE UNICORNS!!!!!

LOWER IT!!! Wink
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http://impalass.uniquekind.net/
V8Killer



Posts : 1690
Join date : 2009-03-12
Age : 45
Location : Southern, NH

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:05 pm

Machine-De-Zine wrote:
-
Those stock motor mounts are pretty bullet proof. The design has the engine mounted clam shell and thru-bolt passing through the captured rubber isolator which is encased in its frame-mounted holder. Its not like the old days where the rubber de-laminates from the steel plate and the engine torques up into the hood!

All hot-rod American cars of my youth had a torque strap from the left side of the front of the block, down to the chassis near the steering box, ESPECIALLY in stick-cars!

You could use chain or cable as long as it is flexible enough to allow some compliance, unless you are using solid mounts, like those from Morroso.

-

That works well on older stuff, but it makes almost any engine with a knock sensor go NUTS. The exhaust grounding out does the same thing. Yhe ecm pulls timing like a mo-fo because it thinks this is some serious detenation going on.
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Deputy347K9



Posts : 147
Join date : 2009-04-05
Location : Limington, Maine

PostSubject: Re: Roadmaster   Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:35 pm

Speaking with Scot this evening he advised me that the Road Wariror is all back together and running smoot with no vibration what so ever at triple digits!

What he found was the busted driver's side motor mount that no doubt was busted at the time of the conversion. There was a one and a half inch bump stop attached to the top of the tranny about five inches forward of the shifter. This would not allow for the transmission to go up in place properly thus throwing the pinion angle off. With the bump stop removed he had to enlarge the hole some for proper fit. With that completed and back together the pinion angle fell into place.

He added 1 3/8 sway bars rear and front, koni shock, differential brace, new upper lower control arms and replaced steering. He is so impressed with the way it now handles. When Ron had the converison done he had a real tall shifter, sort of like you would have in a semi, was hard to compare to my Impala. When he changed to the shorter shifter as I have then I thought his was a couple of inches lower then mine, now I know why.

His next project is, just order from Gary the gauge cluster conversion the Bill has in his wagon. That should arrive early in the week. After that it's new aluminum heads and a hot cam. Thinking that should do it but as we all know we are never done.

I am already thinking of new projects for the spring when J finishes my console conversion. Going to have my 12 way seat controller installing in the console, how I don't have a clue but with J doing the job it will be FACTORY. I do have to install new shocks come spring and will no doubt go with the Koni shocks.

Good night my friends, sleep tight and keep you hands off it as you will go blind.

Larry
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