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 Motor ideas for the two door

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1984twodoor

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PostSubject: Motor ideas for the two door   Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:22 am

Time for a vote.

350 TPI out of an 87 IROC

or the same motor swapped to a 575-650 cfm Holley

?? Question Question

What do you think guys
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No Moa

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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:31 am

Find a 94-5 caprice and use the frame, LT1 and tranny.
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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:10 am

No Moa wrote:
Find a 94-5 caprice and use the frame, LT1 and tranny.

X2.

Then you have modern(ish) brakes, ABS, suspension, etc! Smile

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bfurches



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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:41 am

Im gunna have to disagree on that one...

ABS sucks, and i'm pretty sure the suspensions are identical arent they? Geez, unless you get 4wd disc, i think even the brakes are the same....

Stay away from the tpi stuff unless you have it laying around. There fun around town, but they stop making power around 4500 Sad

What motor is in it? 305?
Stay away from that hunk too....

If you HAD to choose between the two, I would say go with the tpi, but if you can save some change, buy a motor. Put a carb on an ls, or build an old school 350? Possibilities are endless.....its the budget that will kill you (at least thats what happens to me lol) Smile
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No Moa

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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:45 am

bfurches wrote:
Im gunna have to disagree on that one...

ABS sucks, and i'm pretty sure the suspensions are identical arent they? Geez, unless you get 4wd disc, i think even the brakes are the same....

Stay away from the tpi stuff unless you have it laying around. There fun around town, but they stop making power around 4500 Sad

What motor is in it? 305?
Stay away from that hunk too....

If you HAD to choose between the two, I would say go with the tpi, but if you can save some change, buy a motor. Put a carb on an ls, or build an old school 350? Possibilities are endless.....its the budget that will kill you (at least thats what happens to me lol) Smile

If he finds a 94-5 9c1 caprice, the brakes are heavy duty, and 4 wheel disc. And for the price you can buy one for, he can have 260 or better horse power and not spend a huge amount of $.
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bfurches



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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:11 am

^ big difference between a frame off swap and simply pulling a motor....

I personally don't think a 20-40hp gain over the tpi would be worth all that work.

If it were me... I would be happy with the decent bit of torque the tpi has and run it while I saved some money and built a real motor reasonably...

It just dosent make much sense If your going to go through all the hassle, of swapping over an entire frame for an extra 20-40hp and rear disc brakes imo....
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No Moa

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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:17 am

^ well if you've never done it, i can understand your thoughts, its not really that hard, done it a couple times already.

Guess it all boils down to what he wants to spend. Personally the 9c1 upgrade for my in my 2 door will work perfectly.
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bfurches



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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:28 am

For someone at his age who has never done it...it is a little hard, especially when hes doing all the work at his parents house.

Even someone in my position who has done multiple frame-offs would MUCH rather swap a powertrain then an entire rolling chassis.

I guess his question is kinda loaded...

Your right that it boils down to what hes looking to spend...
I guess it also boils down to what he is looking to get from the car.

Were all different, but I know theres not a chance in hell I would pull a body off a frame to swap a chassis with a stock powertrain, but if thats what your into, hey go for it.

Seems like we need more information on what your looking to do with the car before we can give you good advice lol.
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No Moa

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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:47 am

bfurches wrote:
Were all different, but I know theres not a chance in hell I would pull a body off a frame to swap a chassis with a stock powertrain, but if thats what your into, hey go for it.


compaired to what "he" has, its quite and upgrade. Even if he went to just the LT1 its still cheaper and make more power than a stock Icrock at 241hp, if he could find an L98 out of one. And i haven't located one of those for many years in any yards i visit.

And also another point would be, between Doug, myself, and various other guys on here, we have enough parts he could build 10 LT1s for his car and have plenty of parts available to him which again would be cheaper then trying to find a whole batch of L98 icrock motors.

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bammax

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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:59 am

Gen 2's are over rated. Run a tpi top-end on the 305 you have, but use the vortec baseplate available through GM performance so that you can run a set of vortec heads. Then pick up the small port vortec heads and run those along with an LT1 camshaft and you'll have a nice little powerplant that doesn't use an opti or reverse flow cooling. Then start saving up for the LS swap that you'll want to do when you see Dougs car up and running.
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No Moa

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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:14 pm

bammax wrote:
Gen 2's are over rated. Run a tpi top-end on the 305 you have, but use the vortec baseplate available through GM performance so that you can run a set of vortec heads. Then pick up the small port vortec heads and run those along with an LT1 camshaft and you'll have a nice little powerplant that doesn't use an opti or reverse flow cooling. Then start saving up for the LS swap that you'll want to do when you see Dougs car up and running.

Y would anyone waste the money on a 305?

If your going to go to all that trouble, just buy a frigin LS and start from scratch. Might as well toss in a t56 while your at it. And don't forget those 456 gears.

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bammax

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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:44 pm

Why would anyone waste money on an LT1? It's a matter of using what you got. Upgrade the top-end with junkyard parts that you can install yourself with hand tools in your driveway. Sounds like an easy option to me. It'll do the car good until you can save up for something bigger and stronger. You're too young for a big engine anyway Wink
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No Moa

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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:31 pm

bammax wrote:
You're too young for a big engine anyway Wink

How do you know he's to young? Maybe he's young at heart.
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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:17 pm

bammax wrote:
Gen 2's are over rated. .

over rated how??
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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Sat Oct 23, 2010 5:37 pm

Find a decent running 9c1 or impala ss with a wrecked or rusted body. Junk the body, and put your body off your car on it. Or pull the entire drivetrain front to rear, and stick it in your car. Option 3 is my favorite. Buy that 5.3 and 4L60E that bfurches is selling, and install it. Then if in the future you want more power, you can upgrade like a mutha efa! cheers
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bammax

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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:29 pm

Remember that he's on a tight budget and doesn't have a ton of room to work when you guys suggest things. Otherwise yes that 5.3 is the way to go.
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1984twodoor

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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:45 am

No Moa wrote:
Find a 94-5 caprice and use the frame, LT1 and tranny.

I'd love to...trust me

bfurches wrote:
^ big difference between a frame off swap and simply pulling a motor....

And I have the motor and a harness in the red caprice to be swapped right in...

No Moa wrote:
Y would anyone waste the money on a 305?

EXACTLY! WASTE! Arrow


No Moa wrote:
bammax wrote:
You're too young for a big engine anyway Wink

How do you know he's to young? Maybe he's young at heart.

It's a fact, the men in my family never actually "grow up" so yes, we all, especially myself are young at heart. And I wouldn't be a moron with it. I'd be too afraid to crash it and watch an insurance company haul my car that to them is only worth 1250 to a junk yard to be picked by donkers. I Want the LT1, T56, lowwww gears...but its been established that im doing this in my mothers driveway...with a pop-up garage... Neutral which sucks in the cold weather..

Anyway, I am only think of a MOTOR swap right now, even though I'd love to pull off the frame swap someday. And seeing as I have all of the stuff on a motor that still has less than 100K on it I am probably leaning towards that. If the TPI bothers me too much, carb it is.

BUT I like Brads idea of the vortech heads and the GMPP/Edelbrock baseplate that allows me to use it. Plus I want to theme the car as a what if type of car and make it the non existing full size SS car of 87....maybe...not sure yet.

That's why this is brainstorming with the guys who have done this stuff before Wink So now that that's all cleared up, any more adivce?
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bammax

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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:05 pm

Sorry for not getting back to you quicker.

The part numbers listed are through Summit but if you look up Edelbrocks site just drop the EDL- part and you'll have the part number you need. Also I'm only giving Edelbrock part numbers since they seem to be the easiest to find and the cheapest to get. Especially if you're not afraid of craigslist and ebay Wink

Carb
Edelbrock 600cfm electric choke with evap
EDL-1400
I already sent you the info on that one.

Intake
Edelbrock performer with vortec heads (idle-5,500)
EDL-2116

Edelbrock performer rpm with vortec heads (1,500-6,500)
EDL-7116

Heads
L30 heads
These are from engines labled as Vortec 5000
They are found in light trucks and fullsize vans from 1996 up to 2003
You can get them new or you can get them used. Whichever is easier on your wallet and your piece of mind. Personally I'd grab used ones and make sure they aren't cracked or warped. Then you can just swap the springs and rockers, along with the valve seals, down the road if you want to boost the performance or have them "cleaned up" Think of it as spreading out the costs over time.

You'll need to reroute the fuel line a bit and add an inline fuel filter. This is as cheap or expensive as you want it to be. Just make sure you do it safely.
You'll need to get the right linkages for the throttle cable and trans kickdown. Call E-brock and ask what kit you need for your engine/trans
You may need new pushrods incase the length is different.

An added bonus is your topend will have all new gaskets including the head gaskets. The downside is you need to buy new topend gaskets including head gaskets Laughing

You can run the tpi fuel injection in place of the carb and intake if you use a tpi base designed for vortec heads. These are available through a few different sources. The rest of the tpi system including the top half of the intake can be junkyard parts to keep costs down. Don't forget the electric fuel pump and ecm/wiring that goes with it.

The L30 vortec 5000 was also available in a fuel injected version so that is always an option down the road if you decide to tackle that and can find a good engine in the junkyard to strip down. This one is alot like the tpi setup except it'll have alot more wiring and sensors which makes the cost and difficulty go up quite a bit.
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Machine-De-Zine

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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:48 am

1984twodoor wrote:
Time for a vote.

350 TPI out of an 87 IROC

or the same motor swapped to a 575-650 cfm Holley

?? Question Question

What do you think guys
I am curious to see what you have decided on for motor-vation. It seems you have certain restraints on the proposition. 1), where to do the swap. 2), budget. 3), tools-lift-etc. 4), knowledge-experience. 5), a workable-realistic plan. The most important consideration is VISION & DETERMINATION. Pre-visualize the entire project while keeping all of your restraining factors from blind-siding you midway through. It can be VERY fun to do this. Be PATIENT! and keep moving forward. Done right, it will change your life for the better! A lot of good advice can help or hinder you just as profoundly as any bad advice. So focus on PRE-LEARNING THE STEPS REQUIRED to make it happen through completion. You have a ton of excellent help RIGHT HERE with these brothers on this site. Every project evolves as you learn just what is possible and sometimes as a result of certain parts that become available to you as you go along. I recommend trying to most realistically figure out who you are and what you REALLY want to end up with. WHO is this project FOR? Each of us is different and our cars reflect that dramatically. Start writing stuff down, be organized, make lists, prioritize your wish list. Make folders on your computer with links, inspiring photos, etc. Calculate costs, ask questions, research diligently and you will be rewarded. Maybe start with a simple comprehensive list of what you already own. Then what has been made available to you for purchase, trade, or gift. Go on from there. Most of my life I had NO money for this passion to build fast cars, but I did my version of it somehow. I always like to do the most with the least. Some guys like loud exhaust and chrome parts, it's a cost effective way to tell the world your'e fast. I don't care to tell. I love dead quiet exhaust, no chrome and tires that will not screech, but I STILL want to beat a Ferrari Challenge Stradale! Check this out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lJHBujAEdQ That B-Body is not exotic equipment . . . it IS intelligent planning and purposful execution of simple, affordable car building techniques. What's in your heart and mind IS the most important part of ALL of this. Don't forget to watch the video link and be the guy to tell your brothers about it.
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1984twodoor

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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:52 pm

Machine-De-Zine wrote:
1984twodoor wrote:
Time for a vote.

350 TPI out of an 87 IROC

or the same motor swapped to a 575-650 cfm Holley

?? Question Question

What do you think guys
I am curious to see what you have decided on for motor-vation. It seems you have certain restraints on the proposition. 1), where to do the swap. 2), budget. 3), tools-lift-etc. 4), knowledge-experience. 5), a workable-realistic plan. The most important consideration is VISION & DETERMINATION. Pre-visualize the entire project while keeping all of your restraining factors from blind-siding you midway through. It can be VERY fun to do this. Be PATIENT! and keep moving forward. Done right, it will change your life for the better! A lot of good advice can help or hinder you just as profoundly as any bad advice. So focus on PRE-LEARNING THE STEPS REQUIRED to make it happen through completion. You have a ton of excellent help RIGHT HERE with these brothers on this site. Every project evolves as you learn just what is possible and sometimes as a result of certain parts that become available to you as you go along. I recommend trying to most realistically figure out who you are and what you REALLY want to end up with. WHO is this project FOR? Each of us is different and our cars reflect that dramatically. Start writing stuff down, be organized, make lists, prioritize your wish list. Make folders on your computer with links, inspiring photos, etc. Calculate costs, ask questions, research diligently and you will be rewarded. Maybe start with a simple comprehensive list of what you already own. Then what has been made available to you for purchase, trade, or gift. Go on from there. Most of my life I had NO money for this passion to build fast cars, but I did my version of it somehow. I always like to do the most with the least. Some guys like loud exhaust and chrome parts, it's a cost effective way to tell the world your'e fast. I don't care to tell. I love dead quiet exhaust, no chrome and tires that will not screech, but I STILL want to beat a Ferrari Challenge Stradale! Check this out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lJHBujAEdQ That B-Body is not exotic equipment . . . it IS intelligent planning and purposful execution of simple, affordable car building techniques. What's in your heart and mind IS the most important part of ALL of this. Don't forget to watch the video link and be the guy to tell your brothers about it.

All of that sounds like a high dollar award winning car build planning process lol. I plan on keeping that 350 and slowly but surely building it and probably stroking it to a 383. Whether I use the TPI or not is another matter, but either way I have my ideas for both tob end, F.I. and Carb. I have my idea of what I want my paint to be and I love my rally wheels that I will paint body color. I want a modest exhaust, but I might have cut-outs just for fun.

as for budget...well like i said slowly, but surley. I have all of the ideas I want, I just have to pick. I know I want a pretty stock appearance so I want a simple build. I can't watch that videop on this computer but I'm sure I will soon. I can't wait to get the car to what I want, but I know it will take some time and money. I thank you for all of the advice and insight, and I will be starting to have folders with links on the computer dedicated to the project. Thanks!

And if I hadn't said it yet, Welcome to the forum Smile
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Machine-De-Zine

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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:33 pm

Thank you for the welcome, 1984twodoor. Everything I said above will be even more useful when your plans are for low cost simplicity. That planning process works for all builds. I call call it sweat-equity. One of my earliest builds was dirt cheap & very effective. I found an old SBC out of an abandoned 1970 C50 box truck, 010 4 bolt mains & already had a factory steel crank, some discarded heads off a 72 smog Monte (487x castings) look them up, used cast iron Merc-Marine intake manifold that was the exact copy of the 350/350 LT-1 for free in a swap for some snow tires at the end of the season at a marina. I also got the SS intake valves (2.020") & Inconel ($40 ea) ex valves (1.600") for free when he through in the rotted out cylinder heads. For the price of gaskets, bearings & a cheap sears die grinder to do some mild porting & bowl blending and add in an ultradyne flat tappet mechanical circle track cam with solid lifters, that little fella made an honest 430 HP. All day long. And that block is still in one of my cars 30+ years later still pulling HARD! I'd be happy to swap parts and/or ideas for your project.
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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:57 pm

Machine-De-Zine wrote:
Thank you for the welcome, 1984twodoor. Everything I said above will be even more useful when your plans are for low cost simplicity. That planning process works for all builds. I call call it sweat-equity. One of my earliest builds was dirt cheap & very effective. I found an old SBC out of an abandoned 1970 C50 box truck, 010 4 bolt mains & already had a factory steel crank, some discarded heads off a 72 smog Monte (487x castings) look them up, used cast iron Merc-Marine intake manifold that was the exact copy of the 350/350 LT-1 for free in a swap for some snow tires at the end of the season at a marina. I also got the SS intake valves (2.020") & Inconel ($40 ea) ex valves (1.600") for free when he through in the rotted out cylinder heads. For the price of gaskets, bearings & a cheap sears die grinder to do some mild porting & bowl blending and add in an ultradyne flat tappet mechanical circle track cam with solid lifters, that little fella made an honest 430 HP. All day long. And that block is still in one of my cars 30+ years later still pulling HARD! I'd be happy to swap parts and/or ideas for your project.

Thanks! I will definitely keep in touch with and ideas or parts needs. I just need to get my shed converted into a better work area for the motor work.
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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:17 pm

Machine-De-Zine wrote:
Thank you for the welcome, 1984twodoor. Everything I said above will be even more useful when your plans are for low cost simplicity. That planning process works for all builds. I call call it sweat-equity. One of my earliest builds was dirt cheap & very effective. I found an old SBC out of an abandoned 1970 C50 box truck, 010 4 bolt mains & already had a factory steel crank, some discarded heads off a 72 smog Monte (487x castings) look them up, used cast iron Merc-Marine intake manifold that was the exact copy of the 350/350 LT-1 for free in a swap for some snow tires at the end of the season at a marina. I also got the SS intake valves (2.020") & Inconel ($40 ea) ex valves (1.600") for free when he through in the rotted out cylinder heads. For the price of gaskets, bearings & a cheap sears die grinder to do some mild porting & bowl blending and add in an ultradyne flat tappet mechanical circle track cam with solid lifters, that little fella made an honest 430 HP. All day long. And that block is still in one of my cars 30+ years later still pulling HARD! I'd be happy to swap parts and/or ideas for your project.

Someone really needs to teach this guy to post pics, he must have one hell of a collection.

I have a couple sets of OMC heads, and stuff, this might be fun.
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1984twodoor

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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:09 pm

No Moa wrote:
Machine-De-Zine wrote:
Thank you for the welcome, 1984twodoor. Everything I said above will be even more useful when your plans are for low cost simplicity. That planning process works for all builds. I call call it sweat-equity. One of my earliest builds was dirt cheap & very effective. I found an old SBC out of an abandoned 1970 C50 box truck, 010 4 bolt mains & already had a factory steel crank, some discarded heads off a 72 smog Monte (487x castings) look them up, used cast iron Merc-Marine intake manifold that was the exact copy of the 350/350 LT-1 for free in a swap for some snow tires at the end of the season at a marina. I also got the SS intake valves (2.020") & Inconel ($40 ea) ex valves (1.600") for free when he through in the rotted out cylinder heads. For the price of gaskets, bearings & a cheap sears die grinder to do some mild porting & bowl blending and add in an ultradyne flat tappet mechanical circle track cam with solid lifters, that little fella made an honest 430 HP. All day long. And that block is still in one of my cars 30+ years later still pulling HARD! I'd be happy to swap parts and/or ideas for your project.

Someone really needs to teach this guy to post pics, he must have one hell of a collection.

I have a couple sets of OMC heads, and stuff, this might be fun.

yes it could!

Get a photobucket account and copy the image tag and insert the image in your post. Start a new thread for your pics please! Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:32 am

1984twodoor wrote:
No Moa wrote:
Machine-De-Zine wrote:
Thank you for the welcome, 1984twodoor. Everything I said above will be even more useful when your plans are for low cost simplicity. That planning process works for all builds. I call call it sweat-equity. One of my earliest builds was dirt cheap & very effective. I found an old SBC out of an abandoned 1970 C50 box truck, 010 casting# 4 bolt mains & already had a factory steel crank, some discarded heads off a 72 smog Monte (487x castings) look them up, used cast iron Merc-Marine intake manifold that was the exact copy of the 350/350 LT-1 for free in a swap for some snow tires at the end of the season at a marina. I also got the SS intake valves (2.020") & Inconel ($40 ea) ex valves (1.600") for free when he threw in the rotted out cylinder heads. For the price of gaskets, bearings & a cheap Sears die grinder to do some mild porting & bowl blending and add in an ultradyne flat tappet mechanical circle track cam with solid lifters, that little fella made an honest 430 HP. All day long. And that block is still in one of my cars 30+ years later, still pulling HARD! I'd be happy to swap parts and/or ideas for your project.

Someone really needs to teach this guy to post pics, he must have one hell of a collection.

I have a couple sets of OMC heads, and stuff, this might be fun.

yes it could!

Get a photobucket account and copy the image tag and insert the image in your post. Start a new thread for your pics please! Laughing
I am working on it. Got a gmail account, Photobucket is set up, have special software to make it work with my iMac. I even went to the apple store & picked their brains on this for an hour plus. I just wish that this process could be accomplished with tools that I'm used to, like Starrett micrometers, Bridgeport series II milling machines, you know, , , REAL STUFF, and not this virtual alternate-reality. The notes I took from the apple store guy aren't working for me because I'm not getting the same screens as we got on their computer. I have my photos in both iPhoto and on the hard drive. Also I have a ton of photos on negatives and many Kodachromes, both 4"x5"s and 35mm. (I used to imagine that I was a photographer) Has anybody owned or used an Epson V700 or 750 model flatbed scanner? I am told that is what I need to have to get my silver process (analog) images into the digital realm.
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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:24 am

Just a quick suggestion before you get to deep.
Imageshack is better then photobucket IMO
I ran into problems with photo size. The large photos didnt bother me as much as the to small photos.
But I couldnt figure out how to change size on PB. IS made it easy.
As far as scanners go, theyre all pretty much the same. You just need to try it a couple of times.
Piece of cake & all your photos will be saved forever. (after hours of manual labor Mad )
As far as using a Mac...good luck with that, I tried my friends sons 15yrs ago w/ no idea what I was doing & the op system lost me.

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95BBB 100K 3.73 383 New DD...already broke fixt the 4L60E twice
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No Moa

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PostSubject: Re: Motor ideas for the two door   Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:40 am

imageshack works great for me, and i'm a loading pictures moron.
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