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 Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam

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GasTT



Posts : 2675
Join date : 2009-01-19
Age : 28
Location : Treasure Coast, FL

PostSubject: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:15 am

L05 engine. Experiencing occasional hard starts. Car is pinging off the line at light throttle till you push the pedal down a little more, up hills ect. I am going to assume it is carbon build up. Will seafoam in the brake booster line help clear up these issues?
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Matt Trakker



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Age : 35
Location : Reading, MA

PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:30 am

If it's an LO5 TBI, you can just dump it down the throttle body, it will achieve the same results as the brake booster hose. You can do both ways though if you want, I have.

I've never been sure about Seafoam, I've done it a bunch of times on different vehicles, but I was never certain I wasn't just experiencing some sort of a placebo effect with it. Did seem to get a lot of the crap out of the engine.
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GasTT



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:37 am

I read to pour the sea foam in the booster (I have done that before) and use the deep creep spray down the throttle body after stalling the engine.
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Matt Trakker



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:44 am

"From what I've heard", you only need to use the booster hose on a car with port fuel injection, etc. since that's the best way to get the Seafoam to the top end of the engine, on TBI and carbs you can just dump it down each barrel to reach each bank of cylinders.

I've never actually stalled the engine out on purpose while doing this, just shut it off when it started to noticeably choke on the Seafoam. Let it set a while, then started the vehicle up and drove the hell out of it while fogging the neighborhood for mosquitoes... Laughing

You can actually just use the Deep Creep spray by itself with the TBI, and let the engine suck it all down, but I don't know if it would achieve the desired effect like dumping the straight fluid down to sort of choke the engine's combustion chambers with it. FYI, Deep Creep is nothing more than regular Seafoam in an aerosol can, so I don't see how using that in addition to Seafoam in a can would change anything. scratch

Is this engine in question tuned up? Is it throwing codes or anything? Maybe there's a timing issue or a bad sensor, something making the car run too far advanced or something...

TBIs are reliable as hell, but a PITA at the same time... Mad
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GasTT



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:41 am

No check engine light.

Does anybody know if an LT1 EGR valve will work on a TBI car?

Not sure if it's "tuned up". I don't want to throw parts at it if I don't need to.
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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:19 am

Sounds like it is carbon build up as you suspect. After seafoam, put some in the tank along with some 93 or 94 octane, and take it for a shakedown up and down 95 a few times. should clear out. If it continues, a tuneup with distributor adjust might be needed
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Matt Trakker



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:10 pm

I never realized carbon buildup could cause pinging. The 74 does that, and sometimes is hard to start. The valve seals are GONE so maybe I'll get that out of the way in the next few weeks before the roundup!
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GasTT



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Sun Sep 19, 2010 1:04 pm

Carbon build up is usually the #1 cause of pinging. That or bad gas, which was my first thought. But, history of the car is grandma owned since 95 and her grand daughter owned it the last few years.
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mean ss



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Age : 58
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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:08 pm

it will ping if it's too lean, to test the EGR just cap the vacuum line to it
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GasTT



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:22 pm

So pull off the vac line and stick a screw in it to see if it solves some pinging? If that's the case r&r the EGR? EGR for this car is like $70 which is more than an LT1 car.
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mean ss



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:24 pm

yes just cap it and if it's better then change the EGR
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GasTT



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:21 pm

EGR test completed and it was still pinging. I poured a can of seafoam into the gas tank and I poured half a can down the throttle body. Damn thing was pouring smoke before I even finished. Then, a huge cloud of smoke 10 minutes later after I started it up. It is still pinging. I am going to try doing another treatment with the rest of the can. This engine must be loaded with carbon. Amazingly, this car is great with fuel economy. Which also means I have to wait a long time 'till I can put some 93 in it to see if that helps my problem. My old 92 Caprice used to ping unless I used 93 octane.
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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:47 pm

How is the timing? Is it set correctly?
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bammax



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:55 pm

I'm hoping you were smart enough to read the plugs at the beginning of this adventure. Before you pumped degreaser all over them and lost out on the chance for an accurate reading scratch
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GasTT



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:26 am

IMPALADAKID wrote:
How is the timing? Is it set correctly?

I dont know but I guess it should be checked.

Also, I have no pinging when the car is cold. Only when it warms up does it ping... and it pings pretty bad.

So I am going to try:

1. Another seafoam treatment. Let it soak in longer this time and let it just idle after starting up.

2. Run seafoam treated gas tank to empty and then fill with 93 octane.

3. Check timing and adjust as needed to reduce pinging.

any other ideas?

If all else fails should I try a MotorVac treatment?
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sdstick



Posts : 4278
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Location : Revere, MA

PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Mon Sep 20, 2010 5:46 am

Why? you know where to get a MotoVac treatment?
I'd like to know if you do.

_________________
Steve


96BBB 28K 3.42 Bolt-ons
95BBB 100K 3.73 383 New DD...already broke fixt the 4L60E twice
95 Black WB4 Hole...ee...grail
96 Black WB4 No holes in this
95BBB 189K 3.08 Old DD Stolen...by Matt. Cool
Whine..eee...Silver LS6
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GasTT



Posts : 2675
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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:16 pm

There is a place in blackstone MA.
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96Brougham



Posts : 819
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Location : Easton MA

PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:54 pm

Wait, what car is this for? You pick something else up?
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GasTT



Posts : 2675
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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:02 pm

Maybe. Cool
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GasTT



Posts : 2675
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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:24 pm

Ok so the thing was still pinging like crazy after a sea foam treatment so I did another treatment. More giant white smoke clouds and still more pinging. I burned up all the gas that was in the tank and filled it with 93 octane and it is still pinging. My next step is to check the timing. Where do I go from there? Could the plugs be wrong? Knock sensor? I am sure there is still carbon built up inside the engine but at $10 a can sea foam is expensive to keep running through the engine. It really sucks because when I go outside and fire up the car for the first time of the day it runs like a champ and does not ping at all. pale
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bammax



Posts : 2301
Join date : 2009-02-22
Age : 35
Location : Mansfield, Ma

PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:14 pm

Ok, so this probably wont help, but I'll think out loud.

Detonation is usually caused from bad timing or from a lean condition. You say the engine runs fine when you first run it which means after sitting overnight. That would make me think it's an issue with the car warming up and then causing the detonation. I'd say that the condition is mainly or possibly only in closed loop mode. If that's the case I'd say the engine is getting a bad signal from a sensor and leaning out the mixture. On an LO5 my guess would be an o2 sensor reading rich which is making the car lean out a bit. Either that or the injectors in the throttle body are just not keeping up with the fuel demands.

I'd start the process by adjusting the timing and making sure the balancer isn't spinning on the hub. Also check to make sure the advance canister is hooked up and there are no vacuum leaks.

Then I'd clean the fuel injectors and making sure they have a nice smooth and even fuel spray pattern. Just remove the air box and watch the injectors spray into the tb as you move the throttle linkage.

If that checks out then test the o2's and the temp senosr to make sure those are working at spec.

After all of that I'd do a fuel pressure check to rule out a fuel starvation issue.
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No Moa



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Age : 44
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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:50 pm

balancer spinning on the hub, I actually had that happen years ago on a 305, what a PITA trying to figure that one out.
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GasTT



Posts : 2675
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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:31 pm

Wouldn't a faulty sensor or anything like that set off a CEL? There is no CEL and yes, the bulb works.
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Guest
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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:01 pm

GasTT wrote:
Wouldn't a faulty sensor or anything like that set off a CEL?
No. Not all of them. You can have a faulty 02 sensor that may, or may not set cel.

I would take Brads advice and start with timing, O2s, temp sensor?
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GasTT



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:19 pm

What's a good brand for the O2? Should I just get an AC delco or is the Denso brand good?

I appreciate the help and answers guys, diagnostics aren't really my thing.
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mean ss



Posts : 648
Join date : 2009-02-25
Age : 58
Location : Nashua NH.

PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:23 pm

disconnect the battery to reset the PCM then unplug the O2's then go for a test drive
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Guest



PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:25 pm

GasTT wrote:
What's a good brand for the O2? Should I just get an AC delco or is the Denso brand good?

I appreciate the help and answers guys, diagnostics aren't really my thing.

AC Delco. But I would have it timed before throwing parts at it.
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Fishah



Posts : 1118
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Age : 29
Location : Chicago, IL

PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:33 pm

I would just stop wasting money on it. Drive it till it stops running, then throw it away.
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GasTT



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:37 pm

I can't listen to that pinging anymore and if it costs a few dollars then so what.
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Guest
Guest



PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:41 pm

Sell it to me. You have enough cars. Wink
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Cadet57



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Age : 29
Location : Chicopee, MA

PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:45 pm

GasTT wrote:
What's a good brand for the O2? Should I just get an AC delco or is the Denso brand good?

I appreciate the help and answers guys, diagnostics aren't really my thing.

I've always used Bosch in all our cars without problems.
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bammax



Posts : 2301
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Age : 35
Location : Mansfield, Ma

PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Tue Sep 21, 2010 5:55 pm

We threw bosch into the '94 and didn't have any problems. The trick is to use matched pairs. The cheap ones get a bad rap because one Bosch and one AC-Delco are not going to read quite the same.
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GasTT



Posts : 2675
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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:04 pm

There is only 1 o2 in this car so that shouldnt be a problem. I would like to use AC Delco if I can I've heard bad stuff about bosch o2 sensors.
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toomanytoyz
Club President


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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:27 pm

Dude, borrow a damn timing light (if you don't have one) and spend 30 seconds to verify your timing is right! No sense in throwing parts at it if you don't start with the FIRST step. Wink

_________________
Bill "The Verb" Crovo - Resident Car Slut & Unicorn Hunter

A Toasted Marshmallow, A Long German, A Lame Suburban and expensive dreams...
Missing all my previous B's, D's and V... Sad
American Ricer
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"Ooooh! Look! Something shiny!"
NO MORE UNICORNS!!!!!

LOWER IT!!! Wink
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bammax



Posts : 2301
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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:27 pm

Time it, then run it for a bit and time it again. Sometimes the balancer can slip or the hold down can not quite snag enough to hold the timing. This will rule that stuff out as a culprit. Also make sure you check the plugs, wires, cap, and rotor because if any of them are misfiring it can cause all sorts of issues. Carbon tracks in the cap or a corroded rotor tip can make the car fire the wrong plug at the wrong time. It's the same as having bare plug wires touching.
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GasTT



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:40 pm

Relax, I am going to check the timing tomorrow. I havn't bought anything except some $15 shocks to stop the floating.. bounce Basketball
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bammax



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:28 am

I'm perfectly relaxed. My first idea was get better speakers and a new CD and the bad noise will go away.
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toomanytoyz
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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:20 am

Sorry Timmy, I re-read that and it sounded way harsher than it was intended to. My bad. I am relaxed. Smile

_________________
Bill "The Verb" Crovo - Resident Car Slut & Unicorn Hunter

A Toasted Marshmallow, A Long German, A Lame Suburban and expensive dreams...
Missing all my previous B's, D's and V... Sad
American Ricer
www.badassofne.net
"Ooooh! Look! Something shiny!"
NO MORE UNICORNS!!!!!

LOWER IT!!! Wink
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Cadet57



Posts : 4476
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Age : 29
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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:34 am

BTW, if they'll help, if you need any of the wiring or engine diagrams out of my FSM for the 5.7, i'll try and post them. I assume they'll mostly be the same between the Caprice and the Roadie.
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GasTT



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:12 pm

Thanks guys, the timing was off. Arrow

No more pinging, she purrs like a kitten now and I didn't even throw any parts at it. LOL Like a Star @ heaven
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:27 pm

Awesome! Good to hear.

Oh, and LMK what your post winter plans are with it Razz Wink
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toomanytoyz
Club President


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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:24 pm

GasTT wrote:
Thanks guys, the timing was off. Arrow

No more pinging, she purrs like a kitten now and I didn't even throw any parts at it. LOL Like a Star @ heaven

Brilliant! Smile

_________________
Bill "The Verb" Crovo - Resident Car Slut & Unicorn Hunter

A Toasted Marshmallow, A Long German, A Lame Suburban and expensive dreams...
Missing all my previous B's, D's and V... Sad
American Ricer
www.badassofne.net
"Ooooh! Look! Something shiny!"
NO MORE UNICORNS!!!!!

LOWER IT!!! Wink
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http://impalass.uniquekind.net/
GasTT



Posts : 2675
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Age : 28
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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:12 pm

Cadet57 wrote:
Awesome! Good to hear.

Oh, and LMK what your post winter plans are with it Razz Wink

Send it to the crusher
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:20 pm

GasTT wrote:
Cadet57 wrote:
Awesome! Good to hear.

Oh, and LMK what your post winter plans are with it Razz Wink

Send it to the crusher

That bad? Cuz my brother is lookin for a first car/ b-body.
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GasTT



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:28 pm

It was a joke, the car has decent miles no rot and goes down the road and takes turns smoother than my caprice. I will probably keep it as a daily driver.
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Cadet57



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:31 pm

GasTT wrote:
It was a joke, the car has decent miles no rot and goes down the road and takes turns smoother than my caprice. I will probably keep it as a daily driver.

Ahhh. Appears i'm slow on the uptake Laughing
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boojum



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:40 pm

Good deal on the timing. Hopefully you got a bargain cause of the "problem".

Now that you are done throwing money at it does that mean Doug's 5.3L is up for grabs again?
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GasTT



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:13 pm

I think I got a bargain anyway. I did not even know of the pinging. The test drive was short due to the coolant leak so it never got the temp up for me to hear the ping. Had I known about it I would've told the girl, "the motor is knocking and its junk, here's $200 for the shell".
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sdstick



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:19 pm

GasTT wrote:
.............I would've told the girl, "the motor is knocking and its junk, here's $200 for the shell".
Should've started with that line anyway Razz

_________________
Steve


96BBB 28K 3.42 Bolt-ons
95BBB 100K 3.73 383 New DD...already broke fixt the 4L60E twice
95 Black WB4 Hole...ee...grail
96 Black WB4 No holes in this
95BBB 189K 3.08 Old DD Stolen...by Matt. Cool
Whine..eee...Silver LS6
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Matt Trakker



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PostSubject: Re: Spark knock, hard starts and Sea Foam   Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:20 pm

Glad to see it worked out for you!

FYI, even if you've had good luck with the Bosch sensors, never use them in at least a TBI engined car. They are notorious for being out of calibration in the TBI Chevy Trucks and cause minor issues if not more! AC Delco is the only way to go with these, even for spark plugs.
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